Beyond Sunday

21 Days of Prayer - Week 2

• King of Kings Church

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Dina, Peter, and Pastor Seth talk about why biblical rebuke isn’t about shame, but about love, protection, and growth. They explore how Scripture-centered correction can strengthen relationships and help us tell the truth with grace in a culture that often avoids it or turns it into conflict.

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Thanks for listening!

SPEAKER_04:

Welcome to Beyond Sunday, the King of Kings podcast, where we dive a little bit deeper into our message series and see what we're taking Beyond Sunday. My name is Dina Newsome, and I am glad to be with you today. And I have some some decent guests. Yes. You know, they're like just kind of mediocre.

SPEAKER_01:

Yep. This is my compatriot Will Farrell, and I am Ryan Reynolds, and that was the movie we were talking about before we went.

SPEAKER_04:

I would be much more excited if Will Farrell and Ryan Reynolds were here.

SPEAKER_01:

Sorry, you're so disappointed.

SPEAKER_04:

Not that I'm not. No, Peter's my favorite today, actually. Because Peter went and got coffee and Peter brought me a coffee.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh yeah, sorry, Seth. I didn't see him the whole way. That's right. I'm on a Starbucks fast. Ooh. I'll have about 12 hours.

SPEAKER_04:

All of 12 seconds since he said that. No, go ahead and introduce yourselves, guys.

SPEAKER_01:

Uh my name is Seth Flick.

SPEAKER_02:

I get to be the campus director here at Millard. Yeah, and I'm campus director at uh Kim King's Northwest, Peter Bay.

SPEAKER_04:

Thank you for being here today. I don't know if you guys know this. I'm sure that you don't, but later this week, there is a national holiday that I think both of you probably celebrate a lot. It's National Hat Day.

SPEAKER_00:

Are you just saying that because I'm bald? No. Definitely a bald comment.

SPEAKER_04:

Peter wears hats. I do wear hats.

SPEAKER_03:

I will wear hats from time to time.

SPEAKER_04:

So my question is first, I I know the answer, but are you a hat person or not a hat person? Like, do you wear hats because you enjoy them, or do you wear hats because you're having a bad hair day?

SPEAKER_03:

Bald.

SPEAKER_04:

Or because you're cold.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, there you go.

SPEAKER_04:

And like, what's your favorite hat style?

SPEAKER_02:

You want to go first? Yeah. So you know that I didn't take a shower that morning if I'm wearing a hat. Because I'm a morning shower guy. But if I shower at night, I'm gonna wear a hat. Uh, I do have a specific hat style. Out of necessity, I have a ginormous head. It is a size eight fitted. And so snapbacks don't even work for me. I have to do it like the last snap, and it still gets all crooked in the front on the bill. So I have to go, I have to go fitted, size eight, and some of them are still too tight because every hat fits a tiny bit.

SPEAKER_01:

When you have a hat on, it gives you a headache because it's too tight.

SPEAKER_02:

I've had that happen. Yes. So yeah, I like flat bill, fitted, size eight, uh, colorful sports team, or just silly.

SPEAKER_01:

Any of those work for me.

unknown:

All right.

SPEAKER_01:

So when I first met Peter, uh, he was talking about he has a large head and how it's hard to find hats. And I was like, dude, I have a large head as well. Because in pictures where Melinda and I are next to each other, like huge Seth Mellon, and then a reasonable, beautiful size head for Melinda. And and uh Peter was like, No, no, no, you don't understand. My head is so much bigger. And like he put on a hat that should fit anybody and did fit me, but it had the thing where the bill wasn't even on his forehead, it was like rocked back and pushed up. And I have that image of you now in my head. And I'm just like, Peter's a playful guy, loving guy, loves Jesus, and wears cool hats.

SPEAKER_02:

Sometime I'll I'll bring in a fitted hat for you to wear. And yeah, it feels like a comical, like a comically large hat when you put it on, it'll like fall over your eye.

SPEAKER_04:

It's when your little kid wears your hat.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, yes, that is kind of what it ended up being. Cover both your ears. Yeah. Uh favorite hat for me, trucker cap. Um, wear it on more out of necessity than like out of fashion sense, because I really don't give a rip about fashion at all, as you can see from most of my attire. Uh, and as you know from how much I invest into my clothing, it's just cheap as possible. Um, but uh when you do a lot of running and a lot of working out, you sweat a lot. When you don't have hair, then you end up getting a lot of sweat in your eyes. So hats are really functional. I've got one hat on the way that's gonna become my favorite, and one that I have in my office that is my favorite that I don't wear. And it's a black uh black rim cap with the white trucker front, and on it is a picture of Jesus and says, Jesus is my homeboy. And so that's been in there just as a reminder that I get to be that close to him. Uh, but the one I have on the way, it's coming. Uh it's white, all white trucker cap, but in like a 1970s like splash over of color and rainbow. Nice. Uh, and then just like Jesus, and it's almost Star Wars font. So that's great. Uh, I'm looking to wear that on a run as I run throughout Omaha.

SPEAKER_04:

Have you ever considered, you know, going with a headband?

SPEAKER_01:

No, no.

SPEAKER_00:

No, that's too cool and trendy. Headband and fanny pack. I do have a fanny pack. Drinking a red beer.

SPEAKER_04:

I think those are cool or trendy.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, no, they are now. All the cool kids. Anyway, what what's your favorite hat?

SPEAKER_04:

Um, so my hats, I don't, I, I like the idea of hats. I just don't wear hats that often. I get headaches if I put my hair up or if I wear a hat for too long. Um, but I love the idea of wearing a hat. So I own several hats. Um, but the hats I like are like the very 90s, like fitted and the curved bill, like it's you have to bend it so it's like fits. So it's like does not add to the size of my. I do not have a large head, but I have a lot of hair. And so I like the hat that it does not add to the size of my hair.

SPEAKER_01:

You see how she's like really digging in the fact that I'm super bald? Yeah. Like, well, my hair's.

SPEAKER_04:

I kind of just making fun of Peter's big head, right?

SPEAKER_02:

And the way you said that makes me think you do have a large head.

SPEAKER_04:

I don't think I have a large head. You think your hair of hair, my hair is really thick. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I think my favorite part of this is we're five minutes into this podcast and we're with hats. Amen. Yeah.

unknown:

Amen.

SPEAKER_04:

We've got to have something to make us smile.

SPEAKER_01:

So you gotta go to lids.com and uh pay for it.

SPEAKER_04:

We we have some cool King of Kings hats in the merch store now.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, we haven't gotten to the fitted yet. So I was just gonna say they fit me quite bad.

SPEAKER_04:

Okay. What about the beanies? Can you can you wear one of the beans? Are you a beanie person?

SPEAKER_02:

I'm not much of a beanie person, to be honest. Uh, I do play basketball with a guy who wears a beanie every time. He's probably the best player or one of the best players. His name's Tony, and Tony's just on fire every time. And I thought, like, he must have terrible hair if he's playing with a beanie all the time. Then one day his head fell off. He had gorgeous flowing hair. And I got so ticked. I was like, what are you doing, Tony?

SPEAKER_04:

Maybe he wears the beanie to keep everyone else from being so jealous of his hair, so you're nicer to him on the court.

SPEAKER_02:

That's wow. He's the most thoughtful guy. I love that Tony now. Tony, if you're listening, thanks for your humility.

SPEAKER_01:

Anthony, I just want to let you know you mean a lot to us here.

SPEAKER_04:

All right. So I don't really know how to transition from hats to 21 days of prayer, so we'll just switch topics there. Switch hats. Yeah, we'll switch hats. There you go. But up but he's here all week, folks. Yep, take your winters. Twice on Sundays. Two shows, three toes, three shows on Sundays. Yeah. Um, all right. So we are in our week two of 21 Days of Prayer. And uh Pastor Zach Zender has taken us through this message series. And last week in week one, he taught us about how the Bible teaches. And this week he talked about how God's word rebukes. And rebuke, what I learned watching this message is rebuke is a funny word. And when you hear someone say rebuke as many times as he said it in this message, it just sounds weirder and weirder.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, we talked about this in our teaching team meeting. Like usually if there's a re, it means you're doing something again. So does that mean you get buked once? And then they come back again, they're like, I rebuke you. It sounds, yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

I know that just sounds like a full body check. Buke.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, buke is the funny part of that word. Absolutely. Re is fine.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Buk, that's hilarious.

SPEAKER_04:

But like say it five times real fast.

SPEAKER_02:

Just buke?

SPEAKER_04:

No, rebuke.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh. I'm not even gonna try.

SPEAKER_04:

Pressure.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, you know, I feel that's annoying for the listener. But you guys can do that in your vehicles wherever you are.

SPEAKER_04:

So what do you guys think? What do you guys take of Beyond Sunday from this message?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, go ahead, Seth. Well, what I took from the message, and that I'm taking Beyond Sunday, is that there is uh there's a when a why and a how. We'll talk about that a little bit later. But I think one overarching thing that the whole of Christianity can do is learn the art of rebuking with patience and kindness in a relationship. And I think that's where we're actually known for the opposite. Um, when we actually have to provide some kind of rebuke where we see that there's something wrong with somebody that we care about, or more often than not, someone we don't know at all, but we just kind of perform self-righteousness rather than we want to see God's righteousness happen, that that rebuke needs to have some really good qualifications that come so that the end result of the rebuke is actually to the benefit of the person that's being rebuked. And I'm gonna try to get rebuke in three more times to hit that five time mark. But when you don't have the best interest of the person being rebuked in mind, then you're just gonna get self-righteousness. And I think there's way too much of that happening in the church uh as it stands today. So that's what I'm taking beyond Sunday.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, and for and for me, um Zach began the message with uh a story about me.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So I just want to make all the corrections at this point to that story. Uh actually, no, I I don't mind how Zach shares any story, and and if it's funny, I'm good to go with it. I don't know if it was when I first met Mark, because uh here's what I remember about when I first met Mark. I was nervous because when I heard that Chris's dad was a pastor, I was like, oh boy, am I gonna walk in? He's gonna be like blaring Mighty Fortress or something. And I come in his fryer suits. And then just sing along. And I just hear it, I just hear this crazed man yelling, You stink, you stink, what are you doing? You stink. And he's watching Cleveland Indians baseball. Now, now the Guardians, all right, and just yelling at his TV screen, and I thought, I could get along with this guy. So that's what I remember about first meeting. Um, but at that visit, Carissa had invited me and my best bud, and we thought it was a competition for her love. Oh, yes, and uh, but then she started to cozy up to me while we were there, and so then my buddy said he conceded, and he was like, I guess you win. He buked himself. Yeah, he buked him. He rebuked himself from the situation. I like it. Tribuked Tribeca anyway, yeah. But takeaway from this message, uh, we'll we'll get to all that in our conversations here. But my true takeaway is um it's funny when when they tell stories about family, and and uh I I am interested to hear uh Mark's version at some point to see if he if he uh remembers this or if it was just part of his daily living during that time. Well, apparently he was rebuking the Indian version. Yeah, he was rebuking a lot of things. It was mostly like negative self-talk. If someone was like, Oh, I can't lose weight, he'd be like, seriously, I rebuke that in the name of Jesus. I rebuke that for you. And I was like, what is going on? I wanted to make fun of it so much, but I was new, so I couldn't do that.

SPEAKER_04:

I kept thinking of later in the message, that kind of talked about um a little bit of what you talked about, where rebuking has to come from a place of love, really, um, and a place of caring. And he was talking about his mom um kind of rebuking his idea of not being creative. And he talked about that um it if it comes from somebody that's in the word that knows the will of God and that loves you. And that really stood out to me. Um, I just kept thinking of the there's a old saying, you don't um care how much someone knows until you know how much they care. And that's what you know, people can criticize you or correct you or try to rebuke something that you're doing. And if they you don't know that they care about you, it's just gonna be defensive and it's just gonna be a point of contention and it's not gonna mean anything. And that's what kept playing over my head. And I really liked how he put somebody that's in the word, knows the will of God and loves you. That was somebody that really can speak into your life and you should listen to.

SPEAKER_01:

Amen of that.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. Okay, so I come with questions ahead of time, and Peter already jumped ahead to one of my questions. Pastor Zach opened with the story of rebuking. I just don't know who that story was about, Peter. Can you share a memorable instance of that in your own life and how it shaped your understanding of the concept? So another time you were rebuked.

SPEAKER_02:

Believe it or not, I've been rebuked many, many times in my life. Uh, more when I was younger, but still now as an adult. Um I'd I'd say though, one of the most memorable and important times of rebuke actually came in college from a friend named Chad. And Chad was someone I really looked up to because he was uh we sang together in the a cappella choir. He was a good athlete, he was funny, he loved Jesus, he had wonderful hair, just beautiful curls. And uh Chad told me, he's like, Do you know that you're a jerk? And I was like, Jeez, dude, like back off. And he was like, No, you're you're a jerk. I was like, Well, tell me more. And he was like, When you make fun of people to make people laugh, it's not kind. And I was like, They know when I'm they know I'm joking. And he said, Do they? Uh, and that was really important because it put me on a bit of an apology tour, and several of the people I apologized to did not accept my apology, and that's a very humbling, like, ugh, I've really left a wake behind me, and um, I was not showing not living with that fruit of the spirit of kindness, um, because I was just wanted to make people laugh, and uh, so that was a very important rebuke that helped set me on a path towards it's okay to entertain and to have fun, but how to do it with kindness with the people around me. So I still uh uh thank Chad to this day for doing that.

SPEAKER_01:

Wow, yeah. So my story comes from college as well. Um I hadn't always taken my face faith seriously, and I had just made the jump from um my first course of study at like a regular secular public uh college was uh just pre-med stuff. And then I made the transition and I was like, you know what, you can do well in your classes and yet like not be passionate about it at all. And so I transitioned over Concordia University, Wisconsin, and I had had spent some time in like the education department and then just felt a calling to um you know prepare for the ministry. And I thought that I had done a lot of good work on myself in terms of like uh saying no to the flesh and giving up drinking, which in Wisconsin is like that's actually a thing. Uh, you know, and having from been there, like it's a part of the culture expectation.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. I a few years ago I went home. We were snow sledding, and like people just bring coolers of beer to the park. Yeah, the public park is legal there.

SPEAKER_01:

Birthday parties. It's crazy. Yeah. Uh so in any event, I thought I had done a lot of good work on myself and uh had denied the flesh quite a bit, not to say like, oh no, no, it was perfect when I went to Concordia, but you know, like I thought I had shown some maturity, and this one person that I'd been pouring a lot into, um emotional maturity wasn't, you know, like probably somebody I should have been listening to. Uh, but this person had said, you're gonna be a pastor, you're gonna make a terrible pastor. And I was like, why? And this person was like, you don't have the abilities or the capacity to be a good pastor. And the hard part about that rebuke was I took it to heart, not considering the source. And so um, the whole idea of like maybe there should be qualifications that are given to the voices that you listen to. I can't tell you how long I lived as a pendulum effect against those expectations, pushing me further than what was healthy for myself, to try to prove to myself that I was not what this other person said in their rebuke. And so their rebuke was probably meant to put me on some kind of path of expectation where they thought that this is where I should be. But instead, I took it and my flesh took it in a way that was so self-destructive and just trying to be someone I'm not because I was trying to prove that I'm not that person. So your rebuke ended up with a positive, you know, part of forming who you are and you know, greater self-understanding. My self-understanding didn't happen until I had created my own wounds as a result of reacting against it. So that's why I think it's important to talk about things like there are some parameters about how we treat each other when we're rebuking one another. Who was your person? Say their name, just in case. No, don't do it.

SPEAKER_02:

I I rebuke that myself.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, what's great is this person's own life, uh, there was a lot of unhappiness at that time, but now this person is like following after Jesus in a way that's really sincere and authentic and had has no idea the effect that the uh buke and then follow-up rebuke or whatever it was, you know, had on me. Was it my brother? Did you get did you cross with my brother? I did actually cross paths with your brother's but brother, but it that was not him at all. Yeah, it would not be my brother. No brother buke. Oh no, my brother and I rebuke each other quite a bit, and yeah, it's hilarious.

SPEAKER_02:

I got rebuked by my bro too. Um, but my bro is like super straight lace, like very intelligent and serious and the opposite of me in most every way. He's also a good guy, he's an incredible dude, a great passer up in Wisconsin. He probably listens to this podcast right now. You know what? Hey there, brother.

SPEAKER_04:

Our listener count is up to nine. Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

And uh, I I he rebuked me, me growing up. I hated it every single time. But he, yeah, it's to to what you spoke to earlier. The person rebuking you, their qualifications, uh, what they think of you, why they're rebuking you, oh, that matters so much. So yeah, we'll keep this going. How about you?

SPEAKER_04:

So that kind of I I've never been rebuked, never. Wow, I couldn't believe that.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, a little bit.

SPEAKER_04:

No, I so I was trying to think of this. So I come up with these questions, right? Like some of them are kind of created on a little thing that I can feed from. And um, and I will there's the thing, I'm pretty open and vulnerable here on the podcast about my past life, about things that have happened. The times that I that rose to the top for me, like I can think of three times that I was really rebuked, and I'm just not really comfortable sharing them publicly yet. Maybe sometime. That's fair. Like we'll have this topic again. I'm sure there are other ones, like, but those, like I just feel like my judgment is clouded by those three. Like I just think about what were my big and all three of them were great learning experiences for me. Some had a happier ending, one not have a like a happier ending, roughly. But um I just they're not things that I they have to do with maybe information about my children that I don't really want to put out there or things that happen in my divorce to kind of like it. So it's just still personal for me that I because I'm sure that there's other times that I was rebuked, but I just can't think of them.

SPEAKER_02:

That's so wild. I've been rebuked a thousand times.

SPEAKER_04:

Try that I have too. I just okay. So it talks about rebuking in the Bible and in 2 Timothy 3, 16 and 17, rebuking is mentioned as one of the uses of scripture. How do you interpret the importance of rebuke in the life of a believer?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. On the receiving end, if I am unable to receive Um especially if it's a rebuke from someone who uh like a godly person or someone who cares or wants the best for me, I I think as a believer I'm kind of making myself the main character and in some ways elevating myself um in the place of God, especially if someone's rebuking me or in God if God's word is rebuking me and I can't receive it, then I'm certainly saying, well, then I meant and Christ's death didn't matter, and I'm living in that way, even though I know that not to be true. So that's like your flesh responding to rebuke. Yeah, I get that. Yes. Uh and then as far as like giving rebuke is is harder, but at times it is like if if my kid was running towards the street, I would stop them to save them from bodily harm or death. Um, and and with the people we walk with whom we love and care for, a rebuke can do that. And even though in the moment it might just be a uh ouch. And but like that one degree directional change can pay dividends down the road. Now a rebuke on someone you're not walking with feels like a judgment. It's like the it's like the old uh person at the grocery store who yelled at me once because my kid wasn't wearing a coat. And like, how dare you? But not a coat. No, it was super cold. They didn't have a coat on, it was probably Jada. And they're like, like, that's abusive. Your kid should always have a coat. And I was like, Well, they didn't wear it, and we went to the grocery store. Good, nice to meet you. You know, like I was so I love you, right, right, because he didn't know me at all, and he's responding out of this who knows what's going on in that guy. Um, but when it's someone who I'm walking with, uh it is important that if I see it to say, hey, can we talk about this? And especially, I mean, in a godly way, private way, um, to help point someone point someone towards Christ, it matters.

SPEAKER_01:

Can you uh repeat the question?

SPEAKER_04:

In Second Timothy, rebuking is mentioned as one of the uses of scripture. How do you interpret the importance of rebuke in the life of a believer?

SPEAKER_01:

So I think uh I think the importance of rebuke is as effective as how its next part is applied as well. So if you just rebuke, and sometimes I guess that's all you can do, but if you're actually sharing life with somebody, you're gonna look for both weeks of this sermon series to actually occur. You're gonna need the rebuke to be able to say, hey man, you know, like I see where your life is going, and it is not lining up with the path that I know that God has before you because his word is clear and it's very different than what you're doing. But then you also have to have the correction. So rebuke is pointing out this is what's wrong. And correction is showing in the scripture, this is this is where Jesus is going to move you towards, and he's gonna do this towards grace. And I think that's one of the other important pieces, and that's the hard part about doing a podcast in between the two weeks, is that you know, Zach's gonna start to develop this complementary piece to rebuke and then correction and uh how the gospel actually can be an important part of that, and how this is where I think the church, even though we've done rebuking wrong so much, this is what we actually have to offer to the broader world out there of like uh so many people, if they're like, you're doing this the wrong way, well, the response typically would be like, Oh, sorry. And then the other response would be like, it's okay. Like, no, it's not okay. Whatever was going wrong is going wrong. And for your own good, it's not okay. And I'm telling you, it's not okay. But there also has to be, and then what? Then the correction. And I think that's where, you know, the more and more we spend time in the scripture, then we see examples of how to rebuke and correction happen. And you do it more and more, and it becomes more of like this art of how do you do this well? Not just to like get a burden off of your chest, but like because you actually care about somebody. If you don't care about them, you will rebuke them a thousand times and it's gonna feel great in the moment. But I bet you dollars to donuts that the person who is rebuking that doesn't care about the other person, when they're in the isolation of their own self and their own thoughts, that what they just did to that person is actually going to hurt them. And and it's gonna hurt the rebuker just as much as the rebukee. And so I just think that there's a there's some complimentary pieces to both of these weeks.

SPEAKER_04:

I agree. I think that as Christians, we would love to go through life not doing any rebuking or being rebuked at all. But um, there's I I just think of even in scripture, there's time there's things that rebuke us in scripture, you know, that can call us out when we're investing in part of it. And um that seems to speak to you in a certain way about something in your lifestyle that it's like, oh, oh, right here in the Bible, I should make some different decisions, maybe about this thing that I'm doing or the way I'm treating someone.

SPEAKER_02:

Um side note, I'd never heard that phrase before. I bet you dollars to donuts.

SPEAKER_04:

Seriously, donuts?

SPEAKER_02:

Is this yeah, is this uh so I looked it up? It's like it says extremely confident something will happen. You're so sure you'd risk money against something of little value, like donuts. Uh I I rebuke that comment because I think donuts are worth a lot of money. And they're way more expensive. Have you guys been to Hertz? Deliciously expensive donuts.

SPEAKER_04:

Um that's a phrase that my son would say. We just put random words together. Like anytime I say a phrase, like you do that all the time. You're like, No, it's it's sticks to one half a dozen of another. That's the one that Peter loves.

SPEAKER_03:

It's a word.

SPEAKER_04:

But that's yeah, I'll say, Oh, you killed two birds with one stone, or your eyes are bigger than your stomach, or some like phrase that maybe you don't hear all the time anymore. And my son will look at me and just say, You just pick random words and put them together. You just say crap like that, mom. No, no, I don't. All right. So can you delve a little bit deeper into the phrase? At one point, Zach was talking about he was being rebuked by a person that had been kind of following his um social media speaking out about things that were happening in our district. And this person used the phrase, bring light without bringing unnecessary heat. How do you think, like, dive deeper into that and and tell me how you think it applies to personal interactions?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah. And uh the correction there would be it was it was on the podcast and you were speaking about some synaptical things, and then um someone from one of the synods reached out to correct him. Um, and then he very much apologized and set the record straight on that one. So the question was, how do we bring light, or what does that mean to bring light without bringing unnecessary heat? And I think that can look several ways. For me, um, one, it happens better in one-on-one conversation um than versus like if if I am upset with Seth uh for an action he had against me, and this didn't happen, but say Seth um spoke down on spoke down on me in a meeting, and I go online and I say, it really makes me mad when pastors speak down on you at meetings. Anonymous user Peter Bay. Right. Well, that's certainly bringing unnecessary heat where everyone's like, Oh, which pastor was it? What's going on? And yeah, I don't like it when pastors do that either. And and people jump in with their story versus me going going to Seth and saying, Hey, that didn't feel good. That didn't feel good. Did you mean to do that? And giving him a chance to like bringing it to light and having a conversation versus unnecessary heat where others can pile on don't know the true story.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I think that our listeners will probably listen and understand that I am capable of doing that because apparently I've also just divulged that I was going to be a terrible bastard. So, you know, uh what I do like about the idea, and I won't, you know, have to go too much on this because that was a really good response. Uh that a healthy organization, an emotionally healthy person who knows who's know who's they are in Christ and they know who they are in Christ, will probably not ask someone to shh and be silent. Um I think they'll invite any kind of feedback that they can give. So to me, that's bringing light to something because you may not agree with what their feedback is, but if you're not willing to listen to it, you're never going to grow. And so I think somebody that's very healthy would say, like, yeah, shine the light on this. And the light will be able to tell if what you're saying is right or wrong. But heat is when you make assumptions and then read your assumptions or your biases or your preferences or whatever it is into the story and the narrative of it. You're bringing this unnecessary heat, and it doesn't actually get a resolution that you're desiring, other than it makes you feel a little bit better because emotionally you were triggered to share something. So yeah. I think that was a good example that he brought up of two people under the cross maturely um acting as brothers under the cross should.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. And learning from it. Yep. I mean, like openly admitting that yeah, it was something that he took away. I I just like the idea of it being light too. I mean, we talk about light versus darkness, and this is you know, light compared to heat, but just bringing light as in light of God, light of Jesus, you know, not just light as in brightness. So um, Pastor Zach elaborated on rebuking in three different ways. Share your thoughts on the so he talked about a when, a why, and a how. So a when Jesus rebukes when things are not as they ought to be. Why Jesus rebukes to bring about a sharp turn, and how Jesus rebukes by bringing truth to overcome the enemy's lie.

SPEAKER_01:

All right. So I want to hit two of these, uh, not because the when isn't important, but the how I think I want to do, or the why first, just because Jesus is the true God man, um, you know, God made flesh. But he had something in in him um that like allowed him to put the best construction on everything and yet still know the truth and still care. And we have so much of our own ego in our own flesh that we interpret events through that we could never do it to the same great degree that Jesus does. And that's why we like we we gotta practice it and we gotta teach on it, we gotta learn on it. So for us, our why has to go through like a pretty significant filter. Whereas Jesus, like being the true God man, uh is not gonna have the same bentness that we have in our own souls. He just he doesn't. Uh, but I think the how is the other part that I actually want to spend more time in because Jesus gives us a way that we can actually address conflict and rebuking, if you want to put it that way, in the middle of the Gospel of Matthew, he even gives a process for people in the church. So, like whenever we hear that passage of wherever two or three are gathered, there I am also. And we use it usually in this really like positive sense about the presence of Jesus. It's actually in the middle of him talking about church conflict. So, like he's saying, I'm going to be in the middle of this conflict because wherever two or three are gathered, there's going to be people that are going to agree and they're going to be rebuking everybody. But he's saying, like, I'm going to be there. And then within that same um context, he he gives a like great roadmap. Number one, when you have beef with someone, the idea isn't jump on the internet and make a bunch of comments or make an Instagram reel or write a blog post. It's privately go to that person first. That's going to communicate worlds that you actually care about that person. And this is the most important step. And I pray that people don't just jump right over that. And I think most people do, because it feels more comfortable to align other people with you and triangulate uh people to your side against the other person. And uh, one of the things that I do in premarital counseling, uh, that's one of the tools is the roadmap to conflict resolution that he gives. Because the two people that are getting married, the man and the woman, are going to be in conflict because they are also church members. And um, their number one thing is not to run to mom uh when the son is having an issue with his wife, because well, mom always, you know, did this thing in this way, and and my new wife, she's not as good at it, or for the daughter to run to her dad because, well, I have an expectation of what a husband's supposed to look like because dad, you always did this, and and he never does that. But actually to to go to each other first, uh, or as brothers and sisters in the church, like we're really bad at actually going to the one person and be like, hey, I don't feel good about this. I don't think this was right, but I care about you enough to have a one-on-one conversation. Like, I have some respect for you. And I think that one-on-one part is so incredibly critical as the first step, and it gets skipped all the time. We should be the best at it in the church. People should be coming to the church to be like, wow, you're not all about peace all the time, but you do such a good job of recovering it after it's broken. But actually, I think we're worse because we know better. Uh, but then step number two is you get somebody else to come with you, one other person, a trusted person to both of you. And that person can actually like serve as an arbiter to judge like who's right here, because you might come up with a rebuke that is absolutely baseless. Uh, or you think it's much bigger, or you just didn't do the work to understand the whole context of the situation. And that other person that you respect could say, you didn't do this right. So it's really important to go step one, then step two, and then step three, bring people from the church, other people. Like maybe more people need to be involved with this, but only after you're like one in it and then two in it, and then you know, moving it forward to actually follow these steps. And so I think that that how, if we did that, would probably address a vast majority of the conflicts in such a God-pleasing way. And I know I just pray that our church would be the first kind of church that takes it super seriously and use it utilizes it. One, why, how, where, who.

SPEAKER_04:

Just when, why, how.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, no, that I I I think that's really well said. Um, I don't I don't know that I have anything else to to add to that. Yeah, keep this moving.

SPEAKER_04:

I really um liked the when that Jesus rebukes when things are not as they ought to be. And that I think is something that maybe I didn't really uh notice as much sometimes when I read scripture. I kind of just assume Jesus is speaking into everything that's happening around him. But if you go back and look, he's not. He's often quiet until people speak to him. When he speaks up is when there's something not going right. And so he uses that not uh I don't know if sparingly is the right word, but I think it has more pow then, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01:

That he's really than just running around rebuking everything.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Gravy or potatoes or whatever. That gives us an example.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

So I really liked that. All right. How can we as a church foster environments where loving and constructive rebuke is welcomed and seen as a tool for growth rather than division?

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Steve Klein. Yeah, I I do think that we as church leaders, we have uh responsibility and a privilege to show and exemplify how to do this. Um to show how this is done through God's word, to teach on it as Zach just did, but when someone comes to us with a disagreement or a rebuke to receive it, and to lovingly hear it, whether we agree or not, um, and to model that for our people. Um and also to as we walk with people, and like you said, Seth, we're going to learn more on the correction side this Sunday, but um to lovingly rebuke the people around us, but in a way that doesn't push them away or make them feel alone, but actually a way that they know you share this because you love me. And um if we can model that and and show that and talk about it and not ignore it and fess up to the times we messed up, I think that's a it'll be a great example to the people we get to walk with.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and I think we're gonna have to be far more like we have to apply the art a lot better because I think there's like two sides of our broader culture that we speak into. One of them, if you rebuke them, even if you do that in love, um they're so emotionally fragile that they won't even hear the reason why you're telling them, like, look, this is for our best good, this is for your best good. I really love you. This is wrong. They will just break into a million pieces. And it doesn't matter how you couch it. Um, but they still need to hear it. So that's why like we need to practice because there's that one side that we just need to be as gentle as possible, but still clear. And then there's the other side that I think are just like raring for a fight. And it doesn't matter again, like how kindly and well thought through you put it, they're not gonna receive that rebuke right away because like they're just ready. They just want to take you down. And um, you have both of those sides. And if we don't even try, then we're never going to be able to affect probably 80% of the people that we have to talk with uh just by practicing it. It's like doing reps with anything, doing reps of lifting, doing reps and running, doing reps with basketball. Like there's no way that you could expect it to be Alan Iverson. I'll go with a 90s reference and early 2000s, uh, and never pick up the basketball and just like dribble. Like you're never gonna get that ankle breaking.

SPEAKER_04:

I don't need no break.

SPEAKER_02:

We're talking practice. Right. Yeah, you know, and it is interesting. I I see exactly what you're saying. I I get to coach uh fifth grade boys' basketball and fourth grade girls. You do a wonderful job, by the way. You're my son's coach. Thank you. And uh and the fifth grade boys respond so differently to rebuke than the fourth grade girls. Fifth grade boys, you can give them the business, you make them run. They almost like it. Fourth grade the first time I like called up the fourth grade girls for not hustling and made them run, like three of them just didn't. They stood on the line and I didn't know what to do. And so I I was like, oh, well, now we got to do it again. And fortunately, that time they did, because I didn't really have a game plan if they didn't. Um, so yeah, and and I don't know what that necessarily shows other the difference between boys and girls or or whatever, but like, yeah, people receive rebuke differently. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't um engage in this practice.

SPEAKER_01:

Uh and it's like Like there is conflict that comes out as collateral from the rebuke. And I think the less and less we try to engage in conflict, the less and less like they're they're gonna know that we don't care about them. Um, because they'll just put together like, wait, you know this, you knew all along I was addicted, you knew all along I was treating my family in this way, and I was too self-absorbed to see it. And you say you care about me and you didn't you didn't help at all. Now, I mean, is it your primary responsibility? Well, they need to take ownership too. But it is really uncaring not to say something if somebody's gonna hurt themselves, and we need to practice it a little bit.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, and and I would also say that if if in reading God's word, because this is likely going to happen, I I would guess more often for me, I'll speak for myself, as I am convicted by the Holy Spirit as I am in God's word and rebuked by scripture more often than I ever am by the people around me, maybe my kids. But um as as I'm reading God's word and I see where I have been out of bounds, and I see where my sin caused Jesus to have to die, um, that really should change the way I live. And and when I'm not in God's word and I'm not seeing that, I also see where my where I'm not changed, and I start to slip and I'm hardened, um, not only to my actions, but I'm also annoyed by the actions around me. And so once again, being people in God's word and people of prayer, talking to God, confessing our sins, repenting, and turning away, uh, it transforms our lives. That's what the Holy Spirit does. So I uh that's the other challenge that I would give is like I know Zach has mentioned in both of these, like, find uh find a way to be in God's Word regularly. Pick up a reading plan or whatever that is. But God's word does transform your heart, and it will at times rebuke you. Um, and how to receive that in a way that that's a great way to get your rebuke muscle growing.

SPEAKER_01:

I love it. The rebuke muscle.

SPEAKER_04:

Gotta practice it. All right. Final takeaways from this week's message. What do you got?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I mean, the big tagline for Zach is it is written, it is finished. There are those Greek words. Uh, I'm I've already forgotten I asked Zach earlier in the day. It's what was a grop tie. Gagroptai. Sounds like a Pokemon.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I think you've said that before.

SPEAKER_04:

I choose you. Somebody else said it about another word.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, all Greek words sound like Pokemon. They do. Pretty much.

SPEAKER_04:

I think they just look through a Greek catalog and that's wonderful.

SPEAKER_02:

So yeah, I think that was a wonderful, like it is written in in several ways. I mean, Jesus says that to Satan when Satan's trying to tempt him, like it is written, do not put the Lord your God to the test. Is you know, and um, but it's also written, this is what Christ would do. The Messiah would come, and then it is finished. He paid for it all, and we get to live on the other side of that. So let our lives be a reflection of that and be changed and look different to the world. So that I thought that was really powerful. It is written, it is finished.

SPEAKER_01:

Yep. Uh to go into Gagraptai. So, yes, it has an idea of like etching, and because he is talking about how like etching it upon like a stone so that it's it's cemented in a way, right? Well, it's it's also uh the way that they used to write back when that word was like really commonly used, it wasn't necessarily on stone so much as you would write it on um lambskin. It's called vellum. And so, like a lot of the ancient manuscripts, it wasn't, I mean, there were some papyruses where we get the name paper from, but sometimes lamb skin was more available than papyrus. And so they'd stretch it out and they'd tan it, and then they would actually take a stylus um that would not only write, but it would also imprint or etch into the actual document. And so it would like write on skins is a little bit closer to what Gagrapta is close to. And when you connect that to what the Messiah would do in the middle of Isaiah, um, the Lord says, I have engraved you, I've engraved your name on the palm of my hands. You're mine. And, you know, that was the image that I got when he was talking about Gagraphtai and connected to the cross, is like that hole that was there. Um, the the purpose of him being on that cross is because he has engraved his name on my hand. So the the nail might have gone through, but my name was there. And so now that name is also written in the book of life because it was written on his hand. So you know, I just love that we can utilize words like that. We don't shy away from, you know, like some of that kind of imagery that can help us grow. But it's also not like they just get thrown around as like this makes people sound smart. Like it's super practical when you can actually meaningfully apply it in a way like that. So I love the Gagraptai to tell a style that he used this past week too.

SPEAKER_04:

I really just liked his encouragement that um we can rebuke people, like that scripture can be used to rebuke people and not like, oh, we're going out looking for a fight and where can I find somebody? I'm gonna rebuke everything, you know. But that it is something that we can do out of caring for our fellow brothers and sisters and trying to keep people on the path. And I think, like I said, everyone wants to avoid it. Nobody, well, not everyone. There's few people that look for conflict, but they're not looking for it necessarily for the right reason. Or for themselves. They're just looking to give it. So I just liked just the encouragement that it is something, and like you said, that we need to practice, but you got to check yourself. And and that goes back to what I said at the start. If you're in the word, know the will of God, and then you care about that person, love that person, that it is gonna come out as something meaningful. Then I liked that.

SPEAKER_02:

So did you guys know, like, you know what they they call an older woman who like is in constant rebuke without a relationship? You know, like this isn't a joke. This is like, you know, they called it a Karen. Oh, yeah, yeah. Right? Did you hear that the name has changed? They moved on from Karen.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh no. What is it?

SPEAKER_02:

So sad.

SPEAKER_04:

It's Dina. It's not Seth.

SPEAKER_02:

It's there is a male one too, but no, the the female one is now a Jessica.

SPEAKER_04:

Jessica.

SPEAKER_02:

So sorry to all Jessica.

SPEAKER_04:

What's the male one?

SPEAKER_02:

Is it Kevin? It is. You've heard it. Yeah, I've heard it. It's a Kevin. Karen and Kevin. Karen and Kevin, now Jessica. So they moved on. So Karen is back to that.

SPEAKER_04:

Karen's status has improved.

SPEAKER_02:

That's a burden lifted off every Karen's shoulders.

SPEAKER_00:

I don't know. Damage is done, man.

SPEAKER_04:

I rebuke that. There you go.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I'm gonna go to the gym later. I'm gonna rebuke some trainers. After that, I'm gonna have chili cheese dogs for dinner tonight. I'm gonna rebuke some onions.

SPEAKER_04:

Are you gonna buke them and then rebuke them?

SPEAKER_01:

It might require it.

SPEAKER_04:

Well, thank you guys for being here. Next week, we will be into week three of 21 Days of Prayer. And like you said, we're learning about correction, right? You know how to. So it'll um be a good thing. Tune in. And until then, let's keep living our faith beyond Sunday.

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