Beyond Sunday
Beyond Sunday is a podcast where we dive into what our Church is up to, what's happening in society, go deeper into topics from Sunday mornings, and hear leadership talks and coffee break theology from Pastor Greg Griffith. This is a podcast of King of Kings Church in Omaha & Fremont, Nebraska. Learn more at kingofkings.org.
Beyond Sunday
Asking for a Friend: Week 3
In this Beyond Sunday Q&A episode, Dina, Peter, Pastor Seth, and Tyler tackle real-life faith questions—from Santa and Christmas timing to tragedy, cremation, baptism, confirmation, worship styles, and hearing the Holy Spirit.
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Thanks for listening!
Welcome to Beyond Sunday, the King of Kings podcast, where we dive a little bit deeper into our message series and see what we're taking Beyond Sunday. My name is Dina Newsom, and I am ecstatic today to have with me all three of our campus directors.
SPEAKER_04:Let's go.
SPEAKER_00:What? Go ahead and introduce yourselves, guys.
SPEAKER_04:Hi, my name is Peter Bay, King of Kings Northwest.
SPEAKER_02:Hello. I don't have as close a sweater as Peter Bay from Northwest. Uh, I'm Seth Flick from Millard Campus.
SPEAKER_01:Tyler Olfson. Tyler Olfson from the Fremont campus.
SPEAKER_00:So we have a little bit of a special edition of Beyond Sunday today. We are not exactly reviewing our message series. We are um just finished week three of our asking for a friend series. And this was where we allowed you guys to ask questions that um got answered during our message series. And there were a lot of questions that we didn't have time for. So we thought we'd tackle some of them here today. So that's what the guys get to do. We're gonna start off with a very Christmas question. Yes. All right, ready?
SPEAKER_02:Christmas is my favorite.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, Christmas smiling is my favorite. Um okay, here we go. Should Christians teach their kids about Santa Claus?
SPEAKER_04:Well, what I want to hear what you guys do.
SPEAKER_01:Do you, Santa? We, you know, in the Rolfson household, we like let the kids kind of do their imagining. We don't affirm anything, but we also don't come down hard and denying. So I do a lot of, ah, yeah, who knows where this came from, that sort of thing. And then our our oldest, she um are Dina, would you say are there children listening to this podcast right now?
SPEAKER_00:I would say probably not. Okay. We're pretty safe.
SPEAKER_02:So our we we said it was Andy Stanley, Louis Giglio, five other people. Yeah. So we don't next.
SPEAKER_00:All of those other five that I have heard from are over the age of 30. So um I think we're safe if we're if we're spoiling. If not, if there's a child listening, stop the podcast now. Spoiler alert.
SPEAKER_01:So our our oldest, our oldest um came of age regard this question um pretty early, but now she's kind of in on it for the younger two. And I think it's we've kind of found our way through. I I the way I've heard it, I don't take as strong of a stance, but like, you know, for a Christian that's you don't want to put so much emphasis on Santa Claus, and then um, you know, they the the that the moment you say, well, actually it's not real, and it's like, well, you've been telling me about Jesus all this time. Is that real? Peter, I've I'm curious what your take is here.
SPEAKER_04:That was actually just a trap. Now that Tyler has answered this question, we can move on. You can't do this, and if you do it, you're not a believer. Just kidding, guys. Uh, so I don't want my kids to think anything's from Santa. Like, I'm not I don't have an issue with Santa, but I I don't want him to have any credit for any of the gifts my kids have ever received. It all goes to Peter, it all goes to us. We're buying all these gifts. Santa's not. And so we told our kids we don't need Santa's help. We kicked him to the curb. We can give help to other families in their.
SPEAKER_01:We're fully sufficient in the Bay House. All right.
SPEAKER_02:So now that you said kicked Santa to the curb, yes, can I segue that into the way that our family, because it does have to do with an act of violence. Yes, please. Okay, good. So so we we kind of blend a little bit of the Rolfson household in that we never really said that these anything is from Santa. So they just kind of had their own imagination. But whenever they would see the like on the back of like the watch or the game controller is like made in Cambodia or made in Taiwan, they're like, Dad, this is not in the North Pole. And so it didn't take long. But we never said that there is a Santa, but we also wanted Wonder to be a part of their life. And so if they wanted to have that for a short time in their life, that was fine. We didn't correct them. They'd be like, Dad, is there a Santa? And when they were like really little, we'd be like, What do you think? And then they would tell their story, right? Uh, but here's where the act of violence comes in in the Midwest, and especially in Wisconsin. So I don't know if Peter, you grew up in Wisconsin, if you had this as well. Did you celebrate St. Nicholas Day? Uh, we we might have tell me more because he fought people. Yes, this is where the act of violence comes in. So Saint Nicholas was an actual person upon which a lot of the legend and tradition of Santa Claus actually comes from. So he was a bishop in the time of the Aryan controversy, which is when people were denying the Trinity and they were actually falling away from the church. Well, there's this big church council where Arius, the big bad guy who was trying to teach people the wrong thing, kept being super annoying. So whenever they'd make a good theological or biblical point, he would just say this rhyme. There was a time when he was not, and he was trying to downplay the divinity of Jesus. Saint Nicholas gets up from his chair and punches them in the face. And that is the Saint Nicholas I want my kids to learn about that. Amen. So in honor of him, what do you guys do in the flick house? We hang up stockings and put candy inside of them. Oh, nice.
SPEAKER_01:You see the one-on-one correlation there?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I like it.
SPEAKER_01:Defending the faith since since 325. That's good.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, we've actually got a big uh inflatable areas, and we just allow the kids to beat them up as much as they want. Merry Christmas, you filthy animals.
SPEAKER_02:And a happy new year, too. Yeah. But really, we do celebrate St. Nicholas Day, and we tell the kids about like how important it is to talk about Jesus, and that's why we learn about him, that's why we study the scriptures, that's why we pray together, and they love it. They look forward to it every year.
SPEAKER_04:What day is St. Nikki the Tricky?
SPEAKER_02:I think it's December 10th. It's somewhere around there, St. Nikki the Tricky. Like, are you picturing him in with like like boxer shorts on with the big old like cape over him? And now in the ring, Saint Nikki the Tricky. Bishop. He was defrocked and then later frocked again. I don't know how that goes.
SPEAKER_03:That sounds naughty.
SPEAKER_00:Well, Saint Nicky. I don't think we want any more frocking on this podcast.
SPEAKER_04:What in the world is going on?
SPEAKER_00:All right. So here's another Christmassy question. What month was Jesus born? And what calendar was used in the world when Jesus was born?
SPEAKER_02:All right. So there's a couple of contextual clues that we can use there. And some of them are helping us for dates. So, and then a little bit of background in the original language is helpful too, because there are some characters that are given in the Lucan story of the birth of Jesus, which is super detailed and that's great. One of those says, while Quirinius was what? Governor of Syria. Except that's not actually the only way it can be interpreted. Because if it is, Corinius only becomes a governor of Syria in 6 AD, which is after, much later after. And there are certain things that aren't going to line up with the biblical narrative narrative if that's the case. But the word is hegemon that's used there. And that can be any kind of authority position, like uh an elected official. And he is actually an authoritative figure before the BC time period in the same area of Syria. So we don't have to say he has to be the governor in order to do that because that messes with a whole lot of timelines that just will not work later on. With like in the 15th year of the reign of Tiberias, Jesus turned approximately 30 years old. Well, you start doing the subtraction and you get to a point where none of your timeline can actually match with the biblical model. So we're we're probably talking when you line up decrees, censuses, Quirinius being an official in Syria to somewhere around like four BC. And the only real thing that we have to give us an idea of like the time of the year when Jesus was born was do you guys know? September. Actually, you're almost right. Oh, cool. Like it's between August and October, but do you know why? There's a biblical clue that lets us know why in that time period it would be August, September, October, somewhere in there. Probably dealing with the the stars or the sheep. Yes, the shepherds. Yes. They only are going to be keeping their watch over flocks by night. That is pasturing them at the nighttime during those three months of the year, which is why most people believe that it's August, September, October in that time period where you're avoiding the rainy season and you're avoiding the winter. So a lot of people think about Israel like, oh, it's Mediterranean and it's going to be. No, it's on an elevated, like um, what would you call it, Mesa? And so it actually gets snowfall in some of those areas. So there is cold. And so they're not going to put the flock out at night. They're going to be in and kept warm at night at that time. So uh using contextual clues, we figure it's about six to four BC, uh, four to two BC for some of the scholars, and probably August, September, October.
SPEAKER_00:All right, we're gonna shift gears with a little uh heavier question now. We got this in a couple different forms. So, how do I know God is good when tragedy strikes? Or why does God allow bad things to happen? Or we also got how do you explain to a non-believer why tragic things happen, especially to someone young?
SPEAKER_02:All right, so this is really tough. And the reason why I think there's a lot of silence around this is because someone who's doing proper study of the scriptures knows that you speak as far as the scriptures speak, and you're silent when the scriptures are silent. And it means that you have to like you have to know the scriptures at least well enough to know when it doesn't speak about something, and you should not speak on God's behalf if he's not going to speak himself. Because at the best, you are attempting to speak for him, and you might be kind of right. But at the worst, you're defending a God who doesn't need you to defend him, and you're probably speaking something that's false. And I don't think anybody wants to do that, but I do believe, and I think Tyler and I had this, Tyler and I had this conversation previously that the majority of heresies in the past of the church has all started from a compassionate perspective of someone who wanted to answer a question that the scriptures don't answer. And so uh Jesus does a masterful job of this as well. In Luke chapter 13, uh, he brings up this point of like, look, there was a group of people that were in the middle of worship and a tower fall falls on them in Siloam. Like, what did they do that was so bad that this was warranted? Why did this all happen? And it's not because he's trying to get them to find an answer, he's trying to get them to a point where there isn't an answer that they could understand and that it's okay to have the integrity enough to humbly say to a question, I don't know. Uh and it's one of the unique contributions I believe that you know the Lutheran church makes, and that is to be able to say, I don't know. The Bible doesn't talk about this. We can save this question for when we get a chance to talk to God face to face. But for now, let's just say that God is good, his character is good, and we don't know why these bad things happened. Now we do have some scriptures that talk about why bad things actually happened to people in the scriptures. So, like Joseph went through his whole ordeal and God actually tells him this is why. We are told why Job went through his whole ordeal. It was to illustrate faithfulness in the despite you know the blessings that you might have. So I think when we look at this, we should think about it in terms of like, if God has not spoken here, why do I feel like I have to speak for him? Like pierce through the veil of God and say, This is why you said this, right? And then teach it as if it's fact. Um, in fact, we call that a theology of glory. Like we glorify ourselves to a higher position. But really, we're supposed to take a theology of the cross. And that is at the cross of Christ, there's gonna be a bunch of things that we don't understand. His ways are not our ways, his thoughts are not our thoughts. And why do certain bad things happen to people? We don't know. So we're just gonna be at the cross and say, despite all of this, God is good. Despite all of this, God is gracious. Why that happened, what the purpose is, I don't know. And why I appreciate that perspective, I'm sure you guys can speak into this, is it doesn't then call a bad thing actually a good thing. So, like, could you imagine how that lands if you're counseling somebody and they just say, like, my child has died because of a terrible disease, and you say, Well, I'm sure there's a good reason why this happened. No, like that is gonna be devastating to them. Like, how are you gonna one-to-one say that this bad thing happened so that this maybe surface level good thing could occur? And you know, like that's unconscionable to try to say that as a Christian. So sometimes it's just bet just better to say, I don't know, and that's okay. Um, but God is good, God is gracious. Let's just go to him and talk to him. If you want to bring your anger to him, he's big enough to take your anger. You want to bring your disappointment to him, he's big enough to take your disappointment. Let's just bring this to Jesus. So, I mean, it it is a very specific view that I love our church's view on the scriptures for because there are so many different church bodies and so many different preachers that try to assign false motivations to God. Like, God did Hurricane Katrina because of all the weird things that were happening in the French quarter. Well, that's that's baloney because I know a whole bunch of really great faithful people that were there at that time. Right. And they served Jesus like crazy.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Hey, I this reminds me of uh many years ago when I was doing kids' ministry, we had an awesome um guy who is a very faithful small group leader. His name is Steve, and Steve died, and his small group and he was there every week, and so the kids who were in his group, one of them asked that question. Like we we did that day differently. We brought all the kids together, and I said, What kind of questions do you guys have? And one of the kids said, Why did Steve die? He was a good guy, he was here with us every week. And one of the things, like, one, um, when we look at uh Romans 5 12, therefore just as sin entered through the world through one man and death through sin, and this way death came to all people because all sinned, like we're all gonna die, and that's sad. And then two, um it's this the knowledge of like God doesn't desire death, he desired life, he created things perfect. Sin destroyed that because of sin, there's death, and that's why Jesus had to come and defeat it. But we cannot defeat it. Jesus did that, so we're going to experience death, but he defeated it once and for all, so that even when we die, we get to live with him. And so um, with that, gave some of the answer. And then the other thing I try to say to people is asking that question of like why does God allow it it for me, it gives this picture of like God's playing us like a chessboard. And uh that's that's not the image um that is helpful that God's like, ooh, Seth hasn't had enough. I'm gonna burst a pipe in his house. Hey, that's happened, it happened to you too. Yeah, like that's that's not how that works. Um, and so trying to help people know that, like, when God looks at you, he sees you as his child and he desires the best for you, but because of a broken world, we experience hurt and brokenness.
SPEAKER_02:I love the question that you asked there that is often asked by folks, especially like younger folks. Why do bad things happen to good people? And I think you know where I'm going with this is that the rich young man comes to Jesus, I think it's in like Mark 10, uh, and he's like, Good teacher, what must I do? And Jesus is like, Good, you call me good, no one is good but God. And so, in one sense, he's he is notifying everybody like he's good because he is God, and that's why he should be called the good teacher. But it puts us puts him into contrast to everybody else. Like, no one is good. There has been one good person to which bad things have happened, and that was Christ. And he voluntarily took on that role. And I know I'm not the first person to say it. I think John Piper probably was the one who made that the most famous uh just a few years ago with some like super viral sermon that he had. But uh but I think it's important to kind of look at that too, is like there really isn't anybody who's good. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. And unfortunately, in this kind of broken world, why do we actually expect anything more than bad things to happen to us? We're doing bad things to each other. Why wouldn't we expect somebody to do something bad to us? Not that you deserve it, but it shouldn't be too much of a surprise either.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, the only other thing I would add, um Seth, you brought up um theology of the cross. The I can only imagine kind of the the circumstances and situations behind why someone would ask this question, and most likely something deeply personal that happened to them or to a to a loved one. And there's a there's a there's a place for solid theology that should actually give us emotional comfort, and there's also just times where it's like, all right, we we just we we need comfort that comes from the Lord. And I I think about Jesus. Both of you you referenced the suffering he had. Our God is one who enters into the depths of suffering and takes it on himself so that nothing we experience he like he's acquainted with every depth of experience that we have. And then we lean into his promises that indeed a day is coming where there will be no more death, no more destruction. Like we long for that day. That's why the Bible ends with Maranatha, come, Lord Jesus, come quickly, Lord Jesus, because it's coming from that same cry of like, this isn't the way it's supposed to be. And so, Lord, we look to you. We're not gonna try and say, Oh, is the devil here? Was that person's sin there? It's like some some of these things are mysterious. Um, but we know what God has said and that He will wipe away every tear from every eye. And we look for that day.
SPEAKER_00:And I just want to encourage you, if you are struggling with this in your life or struggling with um, you know, how to answer this question for yourself, feel free to reach out to our staff because we would love to connect with you and more of a discussion, a one-on-one level to help walk you through some of these things that are just really hard here in our broken world. So, kind of talking about death, we're continuing along that line. We did get a couple questions about cremation. Is cremation biblical? What happens with bodies that are cremated? And looking at cremation versus a traditional burial, is one of those a better Christian witness than the other?
SPEAKER_04:Before someone answers that, I do want to go on record to say that I do want to be cremated. Okay, Peter. So tell us more. Yeah, because I think I'm going to give instructions to my family on places where I'd like them to scat shatter, or was it scatter?
SPEAKER_05:Scatter.
SPEAKER_02:All right, shatter. You're on public record, and just acknowledge that in most states what you're talking about is actually very illegal. Really? Just say hypothetically speaking.
SPEAKER_00:Well, it depends where you're where you're scattering ashes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:In in most states, that's considered disposing of a dead body. I'm not even kidding you.
SPEAKER_03:That's wild.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. But uh hypothetically. So they can't do that? Supposedly. They might get arrested. I don't think anybody's gonna arrest anybody for that one.
SPEAKER_00:Well, they would have to get caught. I know your child I know your children. They'll be fine.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, they'll be fine. And I'm gonna be dead, so they don't have to do anything I I asked them to do. But I think it's just way more fun to like, hey, daddy's gone.
SPEAKER_02:Go have some fun. See, see, don't do that with my kids because they will totally weaken at Bernie's my dead body. They'll just like carry it around and like lift up my arms and like voting for stuff.
SPEAKER_04:And uh so now that I've said that I want to be cremated, um, is that is that okay?
SPEAKER_01:So get this, guys. I just wrapped up my first seminary class and like I've learned something. So I literally brought the book here. Hey, you brought it. There's some knowledge.
SPEAKER_02:There's a little paragraph on cremation. That book is 200 years old, though.
SPEAKER_01:It's closer to 200 years than it is to two weeks. I could tell you that. But this is a little book called Pastoral Theology. It has a green cover and it just goes through various pastoral situations. Yeah. And there is a paragraph on cremation. May I read, Dina?
SPEAKER_00:Go ahead.
SPEAKER_01:So, not too long ago, this is according to the authors, the church viewed cremation negatively because the general public associated the practice with heathen religions and/or an attempt to disprove the possibility of the resurrection, and Christians were reluctant to consider it. But get this, Peter. In itself, the practice has no theological significance and may be used in good conscience. In fact, because of space limitations in some areas, you know, you can think about some of those tight European countries, right? And because of health considerations, cremation is increasing in favor. Cost too may be a legitimate consideration, then it goes on in kind of issues of conscience and that sort of deal. Um, the one thought I have with cremation is like we believe that God created all of this ex nihilo out of nothing.
SPEAKER_00:Dust.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So the same God that like put his hands into the dust to create Adam, like, I think if he did that in original creation, I think in new creation he could take some ashes and create some resurrected bodies.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely. So functionally, uh I've always fallen on the same area, which is what is the condition of Abraham's body now? By this time it's dust and ash, right? Uh, what is the condition of Joseph's body? It's dust. So functionally, cremation and burial are going to put you in the same place in the substance of your body. Now, one of the reasons why Christians didn't do it out of conscience, not out of theology, was because it lined up with a practice that talked about the body is only bad because you have to shuffle off this mortal coil in order to like move on to something better. Now, we do have something better to move on to, but the cool thing is God will take that body, whatever the state may be, and give us an actual body. So you're not just like some ethereal floating spirit in the new heavens and the new earth. No, you get something back in return. I love the earthiness of that. Um, but my story is I'm also have in my my last will and testament to be cremated. But my brother and I have an arrangement because we're both archers, and I'm not a pagan, I'm not Norse by any stretch of the imagination, but both of us have sworn a blood oath, which is not according to the scriptures. We don't actually have a blood oath, that I'll probably die first because I'm older than he is. I'll just get like just a little floaty of some sort with some wood on me and just kick me out in a river, flaming arrow. Like that. Wow.
SPEAKER_04:Me for him, him for me. Interesting information. My thought was more like drop a little bit off at Ross Dress for Less, Top of the Bell parking lot, Popeyes, church. Peter's favorite places. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:My son-in-law would like to be cremated and have his ashes put into a timer so he can still participate in game night with me. Like an hourglass timer.
SPEAKER_02:All right. So here's here's one thing about like cremation and being like scattered, having your ashes scattered. So, you know, I'm not really for the ashes scattering thing. I understand families want to do it. And so I didn't really know in the beginning of my pastoral tenure like what my view was. And so some really close friends had their grandmother pass away and they're like, Well, we're gonna do a spreading of ashes. Uh and they were like, Could you be there? I was like, Well, I'll be there, but I'm just gonna observe. And they're like, Yeah, that's fine. And so, you know, they said some nice things and they did a good Christian prayer and they talked more about Jesus than about her, which was all good. And then they have this special little tool you can buy, actually, that spreads the ashes. So it's like a long cylinder, and you hit a button on the top and it like opens up the bottom to spread the ashes. Three months later, they sell their house. So I'm like, Well, why did you put grandma's ashes in your rose bushes in the front yard? And then you just sold your home. Like, I don't get it.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, because it doesn't matter. It's just like she she helped grow some roses and move on. Dude, she's not there. I'm like, I'm I'm all for it. I want them to scatter all over the place.
SPEAKER_02:Like, just like there's an affiller maybe, just so you know, of people like trying to throw their loved ones' ashes off of a bridge, but because they're by water and the air just catches it and it just goes all over the place. It's terrible. That is not what I want.
SPEAKER_00:All right, talking about newness, you're talking about creating new bodies. I have a question here related to baptism. So um, somebody asked, I was baptized as an infant. Do I need to be rebaptized as an adult? And then we also got the question kind of related that does a baby that dies before baptism go to heaven.
SPEAKER_04:So to answer the first one, do I need to be re-rebaptized? No. We believe in one baptism. Um, this is in Ephesians 4, uh, but also the apostles' creed is all about it. You got the verse up one Lord, one faith, one baptism. There you go. Ephesians 4, verse 5.
SPEAKER_01:Nicene Creed, a baptism for the remission of sins.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. And so um I'd say, yeah, you do not need to be rebaptized. Uh that being said, you can celebrate your baptism whenever you want, but that's not being re baptized. So uh we we do practice renewal or celebration or remembrance. Uh, and um Martin Luther would say that we ought to do that daily as a reminder that that we are forgiven by Christ and made new in him and part of God's family. Great. Um, but our sin doesn't disqualify us and make us have to be rebaptized because if it did, it'd be dependent on us. We'd all be in trouble. Uh so I'd say, should I be rebaptized? No, you're good. The first one stuck.
SPEAKER_01:It worked.
SPEAKER_04:Yes. There was another part of that question. Uh, I already forgot it. So someone else.
SPEAKER_02:It was about what happens to babies if they weren't baptized.
SPEAKER_04:All right, Seth, what do you think?
SPEAKER_02:All right. So I've actually had to address this several times, and I'm gonna say this uh very clearly that um these kinds of answers are much, much, much better made in pastoral counseling situations where you have a two-way conversation and people can give more detail and you can clarify your own commentary to talk about, like, just so you know, this is the tone I'm coming with. I want to be compassionate here, but I also am called to teach the scriptures in a way that if it addresses something, I can address it. If it doesn't address a specific, you know, like situation, then I can't address it. Um, and usually that's where I answer this question with what happens to babies or anybody else for that matter, um, before they come to faith. Um well, is our God a God of grace? Yes. Is our God also a God of justice where he takes sin seriously? Yes. Is our God all powerful so he can do whatever he sees fit? Yes. So if a baby dies before they get to baptism, like the baptism itself is so helpful for parents. So if something were to happen to that poor kiddo, uh, those parents would know I have no question in my mind that Jesus came into this child's life, and I know that Jesus loves him, Jesus loves her, and I can only imagine what life is gonna be like when I get to see that little baby again. And you know Jesus loves children because he says in Mark chapter 10, let the little children come to me. Uh the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. But what I can't say is I know what's gonna happen to that child that hasn't been baptized. I can say truths like Jesus is gracious. And I can say truths like I don't know what exactly is happening with your child, but let's do what we should do, and that is place your child at the feet of a gracious Jesus, and he'll do what he sees fit. Because then you're not speaking for God. You're not saying, I guarantee this is what he's going to do. Because what happens when they look for the scriptures to check you and they can't find anything in the scriptures, they're gonna think you're lying and you can't lie to protect God. Like that is not gonna be a net good for the kingdom. But you also don't have to go the route that so many churches in the past did go to, which is any baby who dies without baptism is straight, straight up 100%. There are damned to hell because the scriptures don't say that either. Um, they misapply uh teachings of the scriptures. So they look at Mark 16 and they say, He who is bel who believeth and is baptized will be saved. And so they make that into an equation, right? Belief plus baptism equals salvation, but then they neglect to look at the very next clause there. He who believeth not will be damned. So it doesn't say like by virtue of not being baptized, then you go to hell. It's talking about faith. And faith is a gift that is granted to the elect. Now the problem is how are the elect mark marked in here in time through the means of grace, through baptism, through reception of the Lord's Supper, those places where Jesus says, I'm meeting you in grace right here, right now. We can't have that same level of certainty uh about who is elect and who is not without those markers. And so that's why we say Jesus is gracious. We're gonna take your child and place him at the feet of Jesus, and it's up to him to do what he's going to do. And so pastorally, that's where I've fallen with this. Um because I hope what it does is it maintains the tension of compassion but also truth and also leaves God to be God.
SPEAKER_01:Um the the the prayer that I'll often use in these sorts of situations, Seth, is um we we we entrust this child to your mercy, Lord. And it's no no more, no less um in that sort of situation. A quick quick circle back to the the re baptism conversation. So at our in at our Fremont campus uh two, three weeks ago, and we had baptism Sunday, and we uh did a baptism for a guy in his forties who actually was baptized into the Mormon church a number of years. Years ago. I like where this point is gone. Yeah. And and so some might interpret that as a rebaptism. We would classify because the uh because the Church of Latter-day Saints are not Trinitarian, therefore a baptism that that is not a baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
SPEAKER_02:Which is prescriptive in the scriptures.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Exactly. So we would say that actually was not a baptism. And so for our friend at Fremont, we would say, This is your Christian baptism where we you are being baptized in the name of God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Um, and that and that is his baptism. We weren't rebaptizing, we were saying, This is it, this is your one baptism.
SPEAKER_02:So um I have heard the joke, and I don't I don't hold to this jocularity and this humor of a re-baptism is merely a wet confirmation. So, Peter, as someone who has led confirmation for years, that's a gross image. Well, it's it's I've heard this several times. Again, I do not hold to that jocularity, but uh just wondering from your perspective, then what role does confirmation play in like connection to baptism and discipleship? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Actually, we got the question. Why is confirmation so important? So have at it.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. So kids, uh, like I've got an 11-year-old, nine-year-old, and seven-year-old. And um I ask we we tell them what they're doing, and I ask them to come with reverence, and and and they come to church. And they're they come because daddy and mommy say, You're coming to church. Uh, they love church. Um, they love the music, they love kids' ministry, they love to play, and um, so that's that's not their choice, that's our choice. We make them come. Uh, if we were to die, their godparents would make them, or their grandparents would make them. Um now confirmation in in our context happens in sixth, seventh, and eighth grade. And this is uh around the age where kids start to have the brain power to think, what well, I know my mom and dad had me do this, godparents, grandparents, but what do I really think? Is the faith that I carry theirs, or is it mine? And uh, so this is a time where they get to say, This is my faith. I'm grateful that my parents, grandparents, godparents gave it to me, but this is mine that I'm going to carry. And they confirm the faith that has been given to them. Uh, and oftentimes um that parents like my kids were all baptized as infants. Now, that being said, I had um we had uh a gal in our confirmation who's in right now who's never been baptized. So we taught about baptism, and she was like, Well, I want to be baptized. Yeah, amen. Let's do this. Right. And so now she's been baptized, and um, she'll still confirm her faith in a year and a half. So uh that's confirmation is great. They're uh they're of that age where they're it's starting to sink in and we get to dive into God's truth and and like what does the Bible mean? The Ten Commandments, the um and and for them to say, like, yeah, my parents chose this for me, but it's mine. Let's run.
SPEAKER_02:All right, here's my question to you. Baptism is commanded in the Bible, where is confirmation commanded in the Bible?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I don't I don't know this one. Because it's not, yeah, right.
SPEAKER_01:It's adiaphra.
SPEAKER_04:You want to unpack what that word means? Well, yeah, you can't just throw out a word like a diaphragm. That sounds like a shoe. Ex niello adiafras.
SPEAKER_01:What I will say is that Jesus does say in the Great Commission, go make disciples of all nations, baptize them in the name of Father, Son, Holy Spirit. And then he follows up teaching them to obey everything I've commanded. So what we would say is that confirmation is a way to accomplish what Jesus has commanded. Thank you. Anytime Seth gives like the approval nod or the voice of the little sound in the microphone, I'm like, okay, oh my God.
SPEAKER_02:Uh-huh. No, you're right. It's confirmation is a subset of discipleship exactly practice. Yes. So he does talk about it, but not in the word confirmation.
SPEAKER_01:So, like, if if you grew up in the Catholic Church, confirmation is a sacrament. We will we don't believe that. It's a good thing. There's a reason behind it, there's tradition behind it, but it is not uh when we say audiophra, it is is it Latin? Does that sound right? It's neither expressly or is it an it's not an English word, is it?
SPEAKER_02:No. But I was mixing what's Latin and what is Greek in terms of it. Sounds more like it's a Greek base. Okay, gotcha. Anyway, sounds like a Pokemon. But it is. It means it's an evolution of Eevee.
SPEAKER_00:It means those things confirmation.
SPEAKER_02:Ooh, election, that's in confirmation.
SPEAKER_01:It means the things that are neither commanded nor forbidden in the scriptures. So it's things that the Bible is silent on. Um, therefore, it's kind of in our realm of conscience and realm of um wisdom and discernment, that sort of thing. I will say one thing I like about oh, it is Greek. There we go. In different things. Um, what I like about confirmation is because there's such a heightened church culture about it, in especially in our LCMS world, then the families that take it seriously, it gives us an opportunity to disciple their kids.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And for for them to get serious about them discipling their kids. And so I'm like, well, that to me, that's a great opportunity. I'm not looking to get rid of it because if it's already kind of baked into the culture, then well, we want to teach your kids to obey what Jesus has said one way or another. Let's take advantage. Let's do it.
SPEAKER_02:And then to piggyback off of this, isn't the only podcast that King of Kings has. The other one is Coffee Break Theology. And one of the more recent episodes that just aired was on parenting as a vocation. And uh Marcus and Greg were talking about why did the small catechism get created? And the small catechism is just like a cheat sheet for the basics of Christianity. So, like people are always like, I wish there was a cheat sheet for the Bible. I'm like, Yeah, we have one. And here it is. It's the cliff notes. It is, it's like the cliff notes of the most important things that you find in the scriptures. It's not gonna have all the narrative in there, but the teachings are all really wonderfully there. Um, and the whole reason why this is there, and I knew this because of my own like research and studies too, but it was great to hear Marcus and Greg re reiterate this. The preamble or the preface to the small catechism says, as the head of the household is supposed to teach to his house. And what happened was uh for some of our listeners, I don't know if they're Lutheran or not, but Martin Luther was first a like priest in an area. And he went around and he just like went and visited all the households in Saxony that he was responsible over. And he was like, Hey, what do you know about the I don't know, it's Ten Commandments. We'll start with the softball. And like almost every household is like nine. Not nine commandments. That means no in German. No, we don't know nothing about this stuff. Well, what do you know about baptism? Nine, like that, and he just went through this list of all these important teachings of the scripture, and they didn't know anything about it. So he creates this small little booklet uh that actually was first created into woodcuts so that pictures actually were used to teach all of these aspects of the scriptures first, because literacy was not as high.
SPEAKER_01:So, like if you open Peter is actively doing a Google search for his new kitchen remodel. Oh, real, because my literacy is not high.
SPEAKER_02:But they would have these like pictures that would tell the story of like what is the first commandment and its meaning. It would give a picture of what it looks like to hold that true. And they just created all these materials, and that's kind of what we're supposed to do as parents. And this is why I love confirmation, because I find that in churches, you're not just discipling the student, you're actually discipling the parent as much as the student. And then you get this like awesome twofer in terms of a household doing the things that a Christian household should be doing, spending time in the Word, prayer, uh, looking deeply at the scriptures together, discussing it. I mean, this is what a Christian household should look like.
SPEAKER_00:And can you comment a little bit on at my last church? I was um part of the student team for a while, and I got a lot of the implication that confirmation is like a graduation.
SPEAKER_02:What?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:That's right. Sorry to the listeners just heard me vomit in your ear.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and that's I I think that there on some level parents have an idea of that's a box they need to check, and then they're done. And so can you just comment on that, anyone?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I mean, I I I see it as more like um you have been a disciple throughout, and you're going to continue to be. And this is actually time for you to be an even more active participant uh and to find a consistent role to serve and to give and not just be one that takes. Kids take, and then you start eating good food and you're able to give. So, I mean, kids can start to give too. Um, but that's I that's the way I see it. Like time to time to get even more involved.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, the um, this is the downside of some church to culture is that the that can be kind of the the kind of like, what's the expectation? You get your kid baptized when they're a baby, you get them through confirmation, and then you're done. And it's like, well, no, actually, our call to discipleship is lifelong. And so we want to continue to follow Jesus. Confirmation is just a concentrated time to focus. Um, and then it's and then you wake up the next day and you're like, all right, gonna follow Jesus. What does that look like? Being involved in the church, remembering your baptism, serving your use, utilizing your gifts, living out your vocations. Like it doesn't stop.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. But I think one of the problems is that as a church in the North American context, we leaned into it looking like a graduation. So one of the reasons why the ages for confirmation are what they are in like sixth, seventh, and eighth grade, something like that. And usually that's what it was, is because that was the time by which you could expect that children would be in day school uh for so much of agrarian lifestyle in North America. And so, well, why not? And so then a kid gets confirmed, what are they wearing? A white robe. When they get graduated from that school in eighth grade, what are they wearing? A white robe. Um what do we put on their robes now? Little corsage. What do we put on people when they graduate? Little corsage. Uh what happens during that time period? Intense academic preparation. And what I love about King of Kings is we add into it formation like prayer and worship and service and giving, all these things are added to it. But for a lot of churches, it's just like we're teaching you a bunch of academic things. Well, what does that look like? It looks just like middle school. So I think a lot of part of the misnomer is that the church actually leaned into it and did it way too hard because we were like, well, this is the latest we're gonna get them because they're not gonna go off to high school and they're not gonna go to college because they're gonna take over the over the farm for dad. And so, yeah, well, we're gonna treat it like a graduation because we'll just wrap it all up together.
SPEAKER_04:Is that what agrarian means? Farm? Yep. Oh, I was thinking horses, but I was like, that's a horses aren't farms, but yeah, there are farms. Yeah, agrarian. Yeah, horses would be equine, like agriculture. Equine. Agriculture.
SPEAKER_01:Agrarian, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Also sounds like a Pokemon.
SPEAKER_01:Agrarian. We have a podcast title.
SPEAKER_00:All right, we're gonna shift gears a little bit here and talk about worship style. So we got a couple questions. Why do we use drums and lights in worship? But other churches use organs and keep the lights on. Uh, but also another question: what is a good response when family members believe that the traditional LCMS services are the only appropriate way to worship?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, first I want to say that this is not uh this is neither Agrarian or a diaphragon or uh this would be a diaphragm. Yeah, so it is not agrarian and it is a diaphragm. I'll hand this over to you guys.
SPEAKER_02:Uh I'm excited to hear what Tyler has to say about it, actually, because of you have a long-standing practice of like being heavily involved in worship.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you know, this is one of those where depending on who you talk to within our church body, there there's gonna be some pretty strong opinions. Um so if you were to read through the confessions as Peter is planning to tonight, um not it next to your wood wood panels. That's right. Um, but you'll just see a lot of language in there um wanting to really make sure we keep the main thing the main thing. And and so you'll they'll they'll use language of ceremonies. Did Greg talk about this during the first service, the nine o'clock service on Sunday? There was there was a comment uh a comment about worship, but the idea of like the things, the things that get added into the service that is outside of the core, and we want to really get to the core, which is justification by faith alone through grace, and in the context of worship, the the two things are the word of God, word of God rightly preached, word of God rightly sung, and then the sacraments, the baptism and communion. The the other things that go on top of that or beneath it on either side are truly in that, neither commanded nor forbidden world. Now there's great reasons and prudential reasons and contextual reasons to do one thing and one way or another. Um, and we all have our personal preferences, right? And churches have preferences and districts have preferences, all that sort of thing. Um, but we would kind of take a all of the all of the above approach um in saying that um is is the word of God there? Amen. Are the sacraments there? Amen. And that can be in a nine o'clock here at Millard with drums and lights, and it can be an eight o'clock blended with a keyboard and some hymns, and it can be across town at another church with organ and following the Lutheran service book. Um, we would take that posture where we're not saying, well, it has to be drums and guitars, or else, then we're actually guilty of the same thing where we're adding to what God has said. No, it really is just word and sacrament.
SPEAKER_02:Yep. And the problem is if you ascribe a certain kind of musical setting, you're invalidating all the rest of the world's history of worship. And you're saying that only my way of worship in this specific time period. And I think it kind of comes from a point of arrogance of saying this is the only kind of worship. And I think our confessions are really good about being very clear to say there isn't a prescribed kind of worship, is is it orderly? I mean, that was a main focus of Paul when he would teach. And is it honoring Christ with the word and the sacrament? The one thing that I'd add is that usually a service should also have a form of confession and absolution, and that can happen within a rightly preached message of long gospel. So it doesn't have to be like a part of the scripture or a part of the liturgical setting or whatever. But what I love is the word liturgy, which is often used to talk about those pieces of a service, whether it be contemporary service or traditional modern, whatever you want to call it. The word liturgy means the work of the people. That is, what is contextually going to be carrying the word of God to these people, that they can pray it, they can sing it, they can confess it, uh, that it weaves its way through, so that in that time and in that space, people are focusing on Jesus and Jesus alone. And like the scriptures themselves, Psalm 150, three through five says this. I've got to, I wish I would have this all memorized, but it's praise him with the sounding of the trumpet, praise him with the harp and the lyre, praise him with timbrel and dancing, praise him with strings and pipe, praise him with the clash of symbols, praise him with resounding symbols. All right. So uh Tyler, did you purchase a timbrel when you went out to Fremont to go lead worship? That was one thing.
SPEAKER_01:Did you get that off Amazon? Well, no, the the budget didn't allow us to get a timbrel.
SPEAKER_02:Oh and in Northwest, uh, do you have the double harp or the triple liar, maybe? Quadruple harp and the triple.
SPEAKER_04:Yes, we do have the triple liar, we actually have many liars that attend it.
SPEAKER_02:Well, the the psalms also say all men are liars, but it's a little bit different of a word, I think. And women. That's true. We name names here right here on the Beyond Peter podcast. But anyway, I make this this comment to be like, look, this scripture is not an exhaustive list of the only ways that you can praise the Lord. This is a representative list of ways that you can use some amazing instruments to give God glory. What's the point? Praise him. What's the point with uh the timbrel and the dancing? Praise him. All of this is just the word praise him. And so uh prescribing a certain form, a certain instrumentation, a certain setting is not scriptural. So yeah, yeah, I think there's there's a wide variety of worship styles that we can practice and still be faithful and God honoring.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, so another question that we got here is about the Holy Spirit. And the question is how do we know for sure when the Holy Spirit is speaking to us?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, the Holy Spirit um is amazing. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit as a helper, uh, and the Holy Spirit speaks to us through the word of God, makes it kind of alive in our heart. So compare it to God's word. If it contradicts it, not the spirit. Might be a spirit, not the Holy Spirit. Watch yourself. Um and then it it leads us towards Christ. So if it's not doing that, I would I would argue that's something else in your own mind as well.
SPEAKER_02:Yep. I I would uh totally 100% agree. And that is uh on both sides of what you just said. One, the flesh is gonna be really loud, and every other spirit that's dying for your attention is gonna be really loud, and it's gonna speak as if it were God, and it's gonna allow you to justify so many things in your life that you shouldn't be justifying. So push it up against the word. And you see that in the scriptures when uh Paul is in, I think it's his second missionary journey in Berea. He gives this message about who Jesus is, and they spend all of their time going back in the Old Testament to fact-check what Paul was teaching to make sure that this Jesus that he's telling them about, that he's revealing to them at that time and he's saying is you know spirit-led, uh, that this Jesus is actually the Messiah of the Old Testament. And I think, you know, maybe we could do a better job of being those Berea-inspired type Christians that check against the word. I think that's great advice.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think the only thing I would say, so certainly if it comes to like what um what is what is the word of God, right? Like we're not adding to what is is given to us in the scriptures. It also could be someone saying this, they're like, I have a big decision in front of me, and I'm trying to decide, like, Lord, where are you leading me, that sort of thing? Or like, what is it, Acts 16, where uh Paul has the Macedonian call and what he has a vision of a man standing begging him, come to Macedonia and help us, right? Um, and man, if the Lord could speak to us like that all the time to give us direction in life, um, but there probably are some like kind of basic principles that again, if we're not talking like matters of morality, sin is like, well, is is God saying it's okay for me to get drunk tonight? Like, no, it's no. Um that was gonna be the plan at the flick house, but now you're ruined it. Um, but like there there are some like principles of like, well, are you are you reading scripture? Are you praying? Are you in Christian community? And are are you asking God for for direction? Um, and sometimes the the the Acts this Acts 16 is not a promise of God is always gonna do it like this. But yeah, there are some times where God shows up because he's our good shepherd and gives us an indication, yeah, here's here's what's next. And is it gonna be clear every time? No, but there are times we say, all right, I'm gonna take a step of faith and see what God does. And that that is the story of the book of Acts is God advancing the gospel through the faithfulness of his people.
SPEAKER_00:All right, so we are kind of wrapping up our time here, and we are gonna close it out with uh the speed round. Are you guys ready for the speed round?
SPEAKER_02:Let's do this.
SPEAKER_00:We have just a few questions left. And if we didn't hit your question, please feel free to reach out to our staff, to your campus director. If they don't have the answer, they may say, I don't know. Like we talked about earlier. Sometimes the answer to the question is we don't really know.
SPEAKER_01:We're just gonna forward it on to Dina.
SPEAKER_00:Yes. Greg at G G. Is that G G at kingofkings.org. Um, please feel free to reach out if you are struggling with a question that this has kind of sparked this message series has sparked up for you. Um, but with our speed round, we've just got a few left. Let's try to answer them. And you think we can do 10 seconds or less, 20 seconds or less each one? We'll see how it goes. All right, number one question Was Jesus black?
SPEAKER_02:No. I know that sounds really quick, but like uh Greg answered this question. He said, you know, he's actually born on the continent of Asia. So technically speaking, it'd be Asian, but not what we would think about Asia. Uh, he was born in the Middle East. You can take a look at what people look like now in Israel, and that would be very close to what he would have looked like in terms of what does someone from that area's hair look like, eye color, skin color, you know, a little bit more bronze, so not black, but also not Caucasian in blonde hair, blue eyes, like we have depicted in so many ways.
SPEAKER_00:All right. Can loved ones send us signs?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I would I would say no. Um that they're on that side of eternity. Um, God is the the one who who meets us. Um Seth, do you have an additional 10 seconds?
SPEAKER_02:I get 10 extra seconds. Yeah. So like there's not an approval. There's nothing in the scriptures that says that people that were on the other side get agency to send any message back. But what I would say is that there's a lot of people that see things that remind them of the loved one that they have. So rather than saying, like, oh, that was from my grandmother, who I just so everybody knows to love my grandma, uh, but to say, my God is so gracious, he gave me a relationship with my grandma, and that thing reminded me of how gracious God is and how much I love my grandma Shirley, you know, that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_00:All right. What does the Bible say about the supernatural or extraterrestrial?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, the Bible um mentions like angels and demons, uh, does not mention aliens. So I I would say probably not. If there if there was another created being, it would be like created by God.
SPEAKER_02:So I don't know. Yep, cosmos are attributed to the creation of God in the Psalms, and so that would mean anything from another planet would be created by God. But this scripture that we have is just how God chose to reconcile the the people of this planet, and these things are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, and by believing you will have life in his name. He's talking to residents of earth.
SPEAKER_00:Speaking of earth, is earth actually heaven?
SPEAKER_01:Uh no. Um the the story of the of the Bible is um God creating places and spaces of heaven on earth from Eden to the tabernacle to the temple, to then Jesus himself being the heaven and earth person, and then coming a day when Jesus returns. The new heavens, new earth, all in one.
SPEAKER_00:That's what we look for to is it more godly to have a beard?
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, it is.
SPEAKER_02:Peter, come on, man. You gotta chime in.
SPEAKER_00:Two of the four people in the room.
SPEAKER_02:So Peter's is the fullest today.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah. Um, I would say that uh uh the way that some people act, the bigger your beard is, the closer they believe they are to God. And um those people also make their own beer. So that hasn't that's neither here nor there. It is a diaphragm.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I there's my life verse. Well, my life verse is Leviticus 1927. I shall not round off the hair on my temples or mar the edges of my beard. And so I just wanted to say that that guides my life.
SPEAKER_04:Um he's got super marbled edges, by the way. My life verse is get up, Peter, kill and eat. So that's pretty good.
SPEAKER_00:All right. Why is having a friend good for your faith?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I've got a scripture on this one. This comes from Ecclesiastes. I call this the Mr. T verse. Pity a fool.
SPEAKER_00:Are you gonna read it in the voice of Mr. T?
SPEAKER_04:Oh, do it. Uh someone remind me what he actually sounded like a pity the fool.
SPEAKER_03:Okay. Two are better than one because they have a good return for the labor. If either of them falls down, one can help them, the other one up. Well, pity the fool who falls and has no one to help him up. Is that pretty good?
SPEAKER_00:That was great. Mr.
SPEAKER_02:T was actually like he would preach.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Like he would go on TBN and he would preach sermons. I loved listening to it with the bling.
SPEAKER_04:So yeah, so friends can uh encourage, correct, support each other, and that that's a really healthy thing. Call each other out even.
SPEAKER_01:Iron Shepherds Iron, God made us for relationship. Friends are good.
SPEAKER_02:Yep. Uh I love the idea that the what's the opposite? Like the devil's job is to isolate, separate, and alienate, bring us away so that he can attack and take over. And if you have other friends, they can help protect. And so the spirit works through them too. So uh from Proverbs 17, 17, a friend loves at all times. Uh, a brother is born for adversity. So it's really a text about we're made for this, right? To be sticking up for one another.
SPEAKER_00:And actually, we have a sermon series next year, early next year. We're getting so close to the next year. Yeah. February, am I correct?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So January is 21 days of prayer. And then right after that, we're going to not alone because we want to equip our people to know that being alone is not going to be healthy for you, but being surrounded by God's people is going to be amazing.
SPEAKER_04:So, um, so we said that Jesus was not black. Uh, what nationality was Saint Nick?
SPEAKER_02:Uh, I believe he was a oh gosh. I think he might have been in Africa. He's either Turkey or Africa. I always confuse him.
SPEAKER_04:So when I put up my African Saint Nick at home that I get made fun of for, it's actually closer to correct.
SPEAKER_01:According to a quick search, yeah, born in Patera, a Greek colony, and which was then in the Roman Empire, the city is located in modern day Turkey.
SPEAKER_04:So still kind of that Middle East. Darker complexion for sure. If you're hearing that, Carista, it's more correct.
SPEAKER_00:This will be next to your depicted confirmation.
SPEAKER_04:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:All right. So thank you for joining us today. Thank you guys for being here tackling these questions.
SPEAKER_01:A marathon beyond Sunday.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, it was longer than normal. Uh dove in a little bit deeper. Um, this Sunday, we start a new message series called Family Matters. So invite a friend, invite a family member, and come join us because you know, having a friend is good for your faith. So um until then, let's keep living our faith beyond Sunday.
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