Beyond Sunday
Beyond Sunday is a podcast where we dive into what our Church is up to, what's happening in society, go deeper into topics from Sunday mornings, and hear leadership talks and coffee break theology from Pastor Greg Griffith. This is a podcast of King of Kings Church in Omaha & Fremont, Nebraska. Learn more at kingofkings.org.
Beyond Sunday
How Can God Be Full of Love & Wrath at the Same Time?
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It's a question as old as time: how can God be both loving and wrathful? Maybe the two words are actually closer in meaning than they originally appear. We dive into this tough topic to find God's perfect balance of justice and grace.
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Understanding God's Love and Wrath
Dan HoppenHey there , King and Kings Family , Thanks for joining us for another episode of Beyond Sunday Sermons . This is the podcast where we get a chance to take a Sunday message and kind of unpack it a little bit , draw some more interesting insights , bring in some different voices and just get some different opinions . Really , really excited to dive into a very fascinating question today How can God be full of love and wrath at the same time ? So obviously to do that I need two very intelligent people inside me .
Dan HoppenWe couldn't find any , so never stuck with Mike and Julie One is Mike White , who is our director of ministry and also , i would say , the softest dog dad on the staff . Totally agree , wow .
Mike WhiteI don't know if I'd call it a miracle , but maybe it's like the Ezekiel or your heart of stone became a heart of flesh And I really like my dog a lot . He's really cool . Other dogs now , i don't know so much , but Shiner is pretty awesome .
Dan HoppenAnd we have Julie Easley along with us as well . She's executive director here at King and Kings and someone who I love talking about the Bible with , because you just bring different insights that I would never think of before . Every single time I like in message planning or anything , it's just very good to have you alongside today . Okay , so , getting into today's topic , this is one that can be very difficult for people to grasp , but it's not hard to see why , because we know that God loves us . There are 310 examples of God saying that he loves us in the Bible .
Dan HoppenAnd yet we can also look in the Old Testament and we can see times , including the great flood , where God wiped out giant swaths of people In wrath and he's described as a wrathful God . And we see today there are natural disasters , there's pain , there's suffering , and I think it's really hard for people to grasp how we can have this God who clearly loves us enough to sacrifice his son and put it all on the line for us , and yet , at the same time , there's so much bad stuff that happens at the same time , and he either allows it to happen , calls it to happen , whatever you might want to say . How do those two things work . I want to start this conversation with a question , mike , that you were the one who gave this message , that you posed to the congregation when you gave it . And that is , when you picture God , how do you see him ?
Mike WhiteI mean , i think for me it's drastically changed over time And I would say , even now it probably depends on my day and how I've behaved . Sometimes , honestly , you know , and you wonder if God's disappointed with you . But I think growing up I just had this distant , removed image of God and it was this old man on the throne who was just always critical of me and what I was doing And I kind of never measured up and it was always just mildly disappointed with me . I think it was probably my image . But then you know , i think so much is context And when you see the whole of scripture you just get a broader picture of who God is .
Mike WhiteAnd I love Hebrews 1 . 3 , where it talks about Jesus is the exact representation of God the Father , kind of a paraphrase , and so you're like , ok , well , that kind of brings it down a little bit to a level we can understand , where we see how Jesus interacts with humanity on earth . And you're like , ok , i can see , i can see compassion and love , i can see truth and desire of people to know him . So I think I think that's how it's changed over time And so knowing Jesus actually really reveals who God the Father is to me , but it's changed over time . It depends on the day , depends on the season , so it can change , but I think always going back to scripture is really important for me .
Julie EesleyYes , i would say I was blessed to have a loving , involved Father in my own life growing up , so that did help me . I wouldn't say that I've ever pictured God as being super wrathful toward me . I do think that there are times when I've had to readjust my thinking , especially in my prayer time , where I sometimes feel like God is . I can picture him sitting up in heaven , feeling really neutral about situations in my life And somehow I need to pray him into agreement with me And just realizing that that's not true . Right , god is more invested in my life and the people that I care about than I am has greater love for them than I do . So it is a recalibration , you know , kind of a just making sure that my thoughts about God align with who he is .
Mike WhiteYeah , and I think the word father is so important because we do tie our father . We project that onto , and so my dad and I end up having great relationship . He died years ago , but I felt like his love was kind of predicated upon my performance . Yes , growing up .
Julie EesleyYeah .
Mike WhiteYou know , there weren't a lot of words of affirmation and things like that , and so God probably mirrored that with me .
Julie EesleyIt embeds really deeply .
Mike WhiteI just wasn't good enough , i wasn't living up , i would fall short and same things over and over again , and so , yeah , you have to get a biblical image of what father means .
Dan HoppenSo I think one of the most interesting notes from that message that you gave Mike was you made the argument that love and wrath we think of those two words as antonyms , But you said they're kind of on the same side of the coin . Can you unpack that a little bit ? What did you mean by that ?
Mike WhiteAnd maybe the word wrath is a loaded word Where it just sounds super extreme .
Mike WhiteBut if I substitute the word just or discipline , something like that , in for wrath , we might be saying , oh yeah , that sounds a little bit more reasonable there , and so I don't know . I mean , practical examples of a parent are huge . We've seen that with our kids And love and discipline aren't separate boundaries and consequences . I think the best parents are good in both Extremely loving , compassionate , gracious . And then there's discipline when kids fall short and you walk with them And it isn't an emotional reactive . I think maybe that's when we see wrath and don't like it . It's just this fly off the handle at the spur of a moment And that's how we think God is . Maybe , but I think a healthy , loving parent is probably a better example of a great balance of love and wrath . And if good parents are really good at that , i mean think how much better God is than a good parent .
Julie EesleyYes , i mean , when I hear a wrathful God , what I picture is God like sending out a thunderbolt and like destroying people because he's really mad at them . Right , that's just not it For me . When I was thinking about this and kind of getting ready for this podcast , what I think about is God's love and his justice together , right , and so he loves people very much . It gives him a sort of a righteous indignation to see people created in his image being hurt , violated , used , and so it's right . It is kind of the flip side , it's the other side of the coin of his love . Right He is . He does not want to see his creation defaced in any way And won't tolerate it because of his love .
Mike WhiteYeah , And I think God's humanity is God's crowning achievement in creation . He said it was created humanity , it was very good . And so then , any boundaries we have , we would call it sin . It's violating that image of God and life , and I think God's all about life , from beginning to end . And I think we set up judges in this country , and so when judges hand down a sentence , did we say , oh , that's so wrathful and hate filled ? You're like , no , no , that makes sense , it's right , they committed murder . You're like that's right . And so , in the spiritual realm , i believe that's what God is doing when we violate , as Julie said , the image of God and the principle of life for people .
Julie EesleyI saw a really interesting quote that said God is like a great artist whose work has been defaced by the people who were supposed to be looking after it . He's determined to put things right , And if he wasn't , there wouldn't be any love there either . You can't have one without the other .
Dan HoppenThat's good , and I think something that I want to elaborate on that both of you guys said is that when God is angry , it's not an emotional just flip the switch . Anger , it's something that builds over time and that is just so , like we see examples in the Old Testament where , especially with the Israelites , where he'll send a plague , or I think there's even times where people get burned up And it seems so like in the moment . We have to remember , when we're reading Genesis , that stuff happens over the course of at least dozens of years , sometimes hundreds of years , Yeah or ?
Dan Hoppenthousands of years . And if people just repeatedly sin , sin , sin , sin again and God just turns a blind eye to it , that's not just And it's also not loving , because it's allowing people to do something that is taking them away from the life God created for them . Thank you for watching .
Understanding the Old Testament and God's Plan
Mike WhiteYeah , i heard a long time ago a phrase that said a text without a context is a pretext for a proof text Like what does that mean ? Well , it just basically means that the whole of Scripture matters . So you can pick out an isolated incident of God and see just the end result of some kind of judgment or punishment or consequence And you say , ooh , but read the chapters and the hundreds of years that lead up to that And you see God's grace and warnings and prophets and things coming over and over again to call them back to relationship with Him . And then they don't And there's consequences , usually last resort , over dozens or hundreds of years , and it's justified . I don't think we understand how wicked some of the people that the Israelites came across , the Canaanites and their gods they worshiped and child sacrifice and sexual rituals and just destroying what God designed in family and marriage and that kind of stuff . And then the people his own people , went down this pathway too .
Julie EesleyYou know , it's really interesting . I think it really is true that you , when we , especially when we're looking at the Old Testament , we need to look at it kind of in terms of the whole sweep of the story . So when God made the world right , he , he kind of called humans to be his partners in , in creating the world as he wanted it to be . And so when humans rebelled against that , God didn't say , never mind , I'm canning this whole project , I'm done with people . He was like I'm still going to work , I'm going to stick with my original plan , right , and continue to work with people . So let's let's take an example of like Abram , who was became Abraham right , He was not a Jehovah follower , a God worshiper when God , you know , came to him and said look , I'm going to start a new people with you , Abraham . But he , Abraham was a mixed bag . Right , He wasn't all fantastic , There was a lot of difficulty there . And God is going to stick with people .
Julie EesleyAnd when bad things happen , God , what God doesn't say is I'm abandoning responsibility for the bad things that are going to happen . He actually says in Jesus , I'm going to take full responsibility for the good and the bad that's happened , you know in previous times , And you can see kind of all of that , all of that sin , all of the punishment being funneled down eventually in Jesus right And in his sacrifice on the cross , And then when Jesus rises from the dead , it's like here's it , we're , we've got a whole new project now , here , And , and you can see like it's kind of like acts in a play . So the Old Testament is an act . We're not going to revisit that , right , There's a new thing that's coming and a story of love and redemption , And so I , you know , I just kind of look at hey , this is what happened before . Jesus is now God's answer to all of the sin from the past , And now we're moving forward with resurrection , resurrection , life .
Mike WhiteYou know , honestly , there's some really hard events Old Testament and new where I look at it and like I don't fully get that .
Julie EesleyIt's deeply ambiguous , isn't it ? I think that it's that's reasonable to say right , Yeah , There's stuff that's tough in there .
Mike WhitePeople pose the thought that it's a different God old , old to new And I don't think it is .
Julie EesleyNo .
Mike WhiteSince God's the same yesterday , today and forever in the New Testament .
Grace, Love, and Mercy in Scripture
Mike WhiteBut there's so much grace and love and mercy shown in the Old Testament . Like you think of the Israelites who rebelled and wouldn't go in and didn't have courage and fear . And then you see in Deuteronomy 8 , he fed them , he clothed them , he gave them shoes , so they're shoes didn't wear out for 40 years . Like there's all kinds of provision and grace and mercy . And you see rebellion over and over again . He brings them back and gently sometimes , and sometimes a little more firmly , but man , he walks with these people over and over .
Mike WhiteIt's incredible . And then , like you said , he's approximate in Jesus coming .
Dan HoppenThat's the ultimate show of love , and it's kind of crazy to think of it this way . But something that you just said sparked this thought in my head , julie . Like I think we think of The great flood as like one of the ultimate acts of wrath . Mm-hmm , it was like God resetting the earth , and you know so many humans were killed during that . But he could have just blown the whole thing up . Yes , he could have just said you know what these , this whole humanity thing , did not , did not go like I wanted it to . I Had better plans in mind than this . I'm starting over , i'm making a new creation , whatever . No , he said , i'm gonna reboot humanity , but I'm keeping it the same . I'm just gonna start with a different group of people . So I think that even in that ultimate act of wrath , we see a lot of love and that he didn't cancel us . Yes , he just , course , corrected a little bit .
Mike WhiteYeah , right , and I think we see society ebb and flow over time And that's why now there's a more pronounced view of love , and I think one of the reasons for it is we don't want any Accountability . Honestly , we like love . That's the kind of the permissive side Maybe you're the gentle side of God is because we don't want anyone to have accountability over us . But God created us , created the purpose , created the boundaries for us , and he also has the right to have justice and be the judge over us as well . And we negate that sometimes because we want that role .
Julie EesleyYes .
Dan HoppenYes , you brought up an interesting point in your message , mike , and that yeah , we have in Western culture . We have this , this sense that God should be all-loving and that he should care for us . We love that you know , technicolor picture in the kids Bible where Jesus has got , you know , six kids piled on his lap and he's got this big ol smile on his face . And there's no doubt That's part of God's personality , for sure . But in eastern cultures They focus more on the wrathful side of God or of religion . I I just I think that that's so interesting that , like Somehow , we're both focusing on Aspects of God but we're also kind of both missing the mark a little bit sure .
Mike WhiteYeah , i would say we can't allow culture to shape our View of God . That's why you have to go back to scripture to see the whole of God's character and not let my preferences or what culture tells me About who God may or may not be Determine that . Because if yeah , if you live in the Middle East , it's a very different image of God than you might see with the kids on your knee and that kind of stuff .
Julie EesleyYeah , i think You , we can see across cultures , though , that the cry of the human heart is for justice . I think there's . There's a deep longing for things to be made right . Yes , and So I . I do think that , even in kind of our more permissive society , i think people are deeply longing for the things that are wrong to be made right across the board . Now , what that looks like , you know There are a lot of interpretations about that everywhere , you know .
Julie EesleyThe one thing I was thinking about , with regard to maybe other religions and Some emphasizing the wrath of God more , what Makes our faith so different , is that when I think a lot of other religions , when they're looking at how do I appease a , appease a God of justice , or try to make things right , it's all falling back on the person again , right ? So what do I need to do to make God not be angry with me , or to make myself right with God ? and What we in the Christian faith say is we can't do that . We're falling back on the righteousness of Christ . So I mean , there's , there's . Is God still a God of justice ? is God still a God of perfect holiness and righteousness ? Absolutely . Can we achieve that on our own ? No way . But is there hope for us ? Yes , there is in Jesus Christ .
Mike WhiteYeah , i heard someone years ago say how how we treat sin shows our understanding of the gospel , and so it's like how , which side do you go with that , are you ? hey , i'm forgiven , so now I'm afraid I'm gonna do whatever I want , or you always living in condemnation and shame ? And so it's like we should take our actions very seriously , because God put these in place for a reason . Yes , there are spiritual standards that we live up to , but it's people . When we screw up , it doesn't mean that we're out of the family of God and we have to relive punishment or something like that . So it's that balance that we take sin very seriously . We come to God quickly , we confess , we repent , but we receive our identity in Christ , um , so I think that does a good barometer . I heard years ago .
Julie EesleyYeah , hopefully , as we're traveling along our road with Jesus , we're growing an awareness of two things . We're growing in an awareness of God's holiness right , i'm like , wow , oh gosh , he's really a lot holier than I ever even conceived of . We also , even though we made hopefully we're not living more sinfully We're becoming more aware of the depth of our sin , how deeply it's woven into the fabric of who we are right . And as we are becoming more aware of those two things God's holiness and my sinfulness The cross of Christ becomes more valuable to us . It looms larger in our lives , right , because of all he's done for us .
Mike WhiteYeah , i think that's good Friday services , probably my favorite service of the year . There's just an interesting heavier feel and it gives a weight to Jesus sacrifice and payment that he went through for me . So it wasn't this trivial thing that I needed then have whatever freedom and license I want to live how I want know it . It cost a lot , grace is free but it's not cheap And he gave everything for us So it's like whoa man , that's gonna change my heart if I receive that .
Julie EesleyYes .
Dan HoppenThere was a really good Analogy that I found online from someone named D Martin Lloyd Jones . This is an illustration . That's said if a friend tells you that he's paid a bill for you , you have no idea how to respond until you know the size of the bill . Until you know how much he paid , you don't know whether to shake his hand or fall down , and kiss his feet .
Dan HoppenUnless or until you believe in hell , you will never know how much Jesus loves you , how much he values you and how much he paid for you . No , will you . Nor will you understand the grandeur , majesty and holiness of God until you understand the alternative that , like , floored me .
Mike WhiteYeah , when I read that Yes , i love that I mean Jesus gives an image in a parable of people . Only two different deaths 50 and 500 , right , right , because there's a sinful woman who's Anointing him and the Pharisee who's like I don't know about that . So it's the same kind of thing . Like you realize how big the debt is , it's gonna change your heart and worship posture , yeah .
Dan HoppenSo one of the things that you did in your message , mike , is is you're like , okay If we don't like a God who's full of love and wrath , and create a better one ? I Like , how would you make a God that's better ? Would you have a God that's just full of love and is just cheering you on from the sidelines ? Whatever you do is just gonna say , yeah , you go , man , even though you're not living the best life that you could live . But or are you going to create an all a God that's all about justice and is just laying down the law constantly ? Obviously , i don't think anyone would create a God on one of those spectrums . So I just think that that was such an interesting question , like would it be better if we had a morally ambivalent God ? I think the question is clearly , or the answer is clearly no .
Julie EesleyI mean again , we're just gonna go back to a really practical example . You think about family life and what makes for a secure childhood . It's not a parent who gives in to their child and lets them do whatever they feel like , and it's not a parent who's taking their kid out to the woodshed either , every day , for every single infraction . So there's that wonderful balance of like I'm creating safety , i'm creating boundaries , i'm creating security in your life , and there's a lot of love attached to that too . That's where people thrive , and I feel like , you know , some of the best things that we see in in humanity are just a small reflection of what the beauty and truth of God is .
Mike WhiteI think we don't get the implications of removing . We probably remove the justice piece in our society And , like you said , there's this deep longing that there's some line for all of , let's say , americans . A tragic school shooting .
Julie EesleyYes .
Mike WhiteEverybody's so involved . The adult comes in and just kills a bunch of kids . We all get it . We're like there needs to be justice . So it's some line there's got to be justice with this . And I worked in student ministry for almost 20 years And so I saw both versions of that parenting and how it shapes a kid and a parent that gives their kid everything you create a monster that's so entitled and self-centered and doesn't listen to anybody . And they're the chosen child . But I've seen the other one where they just live under guilt and shame and don't know who they are And then when they get out under that and they go live a wildlife usually Yes , and feel embittered and alienated , right Yeah .
Mike WhiteSo I mean I think God's just that perfect . It's not one of the other . It's that Jesus came full of grace and truth . I mean there's that the love and justice . It's together .
Dan HoppenDid that time and students help ? like shift how you viewed God .
Mike WhiteI think having my own kids probably did more . I think , yes , students definitely did that . I think what I would typically see is the outward behavior of a kid . That was challenging . Let's start there . But then once you hear their story , like you understand what created them . I just think people are more mathematical than we think . The inputs create an output , and so when you see their polarized home , like that super permissive or super just as focused , it's going to create a child as a result of that , and so that gave me more compassion for kids . When you understand their story and what they've been through and what their home life is , and not who they are . It doesn't make their behavior right or acceptable , but , yeah , it gives you compassion .
Dan HoppenSomething you said during your message , Mike , was God's anger , wrath and justice are not the same as human anger , wrath and justice . What do you think about that , Julie ?
Julie EesleyIt's got to be . I mean , even when I think I've got some sort of righteous indignation about something , there's always some little bit of sin and selfishness there . I think when I consider my anger , I would say that probably close to at least 90% has some serious selfish motivation . You're putting me out , You're making me frustrated . Things aren't going the way that I want them to . It's really hard to conceive of a pure sort of wrath , a pure justice . So it's challenging for sure .
Mike WhiteYeah , I think probably cartoons and stuff shaped our image of God . We see them in movies and it's that kind of lightning bolt , that reactionary , that impulsive . I still hear comedians and stuff make fun of God today and they mock these human characteristics of God . It's just like , well , yeah , you do see God get angry and frustrated . There's a really valid reason .
Julie EesleyThere are tons of examples of that , of Jesus being angered by something in the Bible , and it's never due to man . I haven't had a good night of sleep for five days because all you guys are on my case or whatever . It's all . When he sees something that is wrong , that needs to be made right , his creation being defaced in some way , Yeah , I mean , dan , you mentioned the kids coming to him .
Mike WhiteIt's very different in our society today , because I think our world revolves around kids , if you have kids , but back then they weren't very valuable , they were less than because they couldn't contribute to the family as much that sort of thing . And so the disciples were actually living out the cultural values from prohibiting kids from coming to Jesus And he was like no , no , no , like little kids come to me . So that was an image where , for instance , he was angry with his own followers because he wasn't valuing God's creation . I mean , i think you can almost separate it into the religious , self-righteous leaders He responds very differently to them into the very broken , estranged , sinful people of the world . It doesn't mean there's never truth here , but there's mercy , there's grace , there's value that he places on them . And then you see the religious people have kind of rejected him over and over and you see , eventually he keeps coming harder and harder and bringing justice and truth to them .
Julie EesleyYeah , I think he really railed against gatekeeping for the kingdom of . God Right . So Jesus is like hey , everybody , this is open and available to everyone . Don't exclude people , don't tell people they can't come .
Mike WhiteYeah , i mean , i think , matthew 9 , where he sees the people and he's like they're like sheep without a shepherd , and he has compassion for them . You know what I mean . And so it's like this guttural . The Greek word is like this guttural hurt , because you see that , oh gosh , they're just suffering , they're lost , they have no leadership , and so he's frustrated with bad leadership . In that situation , self-centered leadership we see in the temple , when he's so frustrated they've turned a good , godly thing of offering sacrifices and repentance into a business And they were profiting off the poor of the world who were also supposed to come back for those celebrations , right , and he's angry and you're like you've missed it , because the house of God was a house of prayer for all nations , so relationship with God for everybody . And now you put a blockade count . You were saying , yep , gatekeeping , gatekeeping can't come in unless you pay the right amount , with the right amount of money and the right kind of sacrifice .
Dan HoppenWell , i mean , i think we've covered the topic pretty well . Is there any parting thoughts that you guys have anything that we haven't hit on so far that you want to talk about before we get out of here ?
Julie EesleyI think for me it's just reiterating again that God is a God of justice and righteousness , but in his love he made a way for us to be right with him , and in Jesus we see the justice of God and the love of God perfectly expressed . So there's so much hope , so much good news in the story of Jesus . We have a God who will make everything ultimately right one day , but our lives right . Once . We've said , hey , god , i'm a sinner , the only way that I can come to you in righteousness is through the blood of Jesus Christ , things can begin to be made right in our own lives . Right now We can see more justice , more righteousness , and we can become instruments of that justice and righteousness ourselves by the Holy Spirit's empowering . It's such good news .
Mike WhiteYeah , i think scripture talks about in his forbearance he left man's sins unpunished and just at the right time .
Mike WhiteYou know what I mean . So I think I said it in my message . the cross is the perfect intersection of love and wrath . There was compassion on humanity , there was mercy with holding judgment . Then Jesus received all of that , so we don't have to be punished for it . Therefore , we have new life in him . So you see that love and justice there And I'd encourage people to know scripture , to read scripture , to wrestle with it . Like I said , there's lots of areas . I've read through it a bunch of times and I don't get it . There are hard times when I see God and I'm like I don't understand how you are in this situation . Be honest , one of our values is being authentic , and you see David in the Psalms over and over again . it's like God , where are you ? I don't get this .
Mike WhiteSo I think , that's the God that we have , that we can raise questions to , or doubts , or I don't understand this , but I want to know you And then I think , ultimately you see the person of Jesus revealing who God is . So no scripture , dig into it , be in community , wrestle with it honestly , yeah .
Julie EesleyAnd I think I would say , you know , when we kind of circling back to the very beginning question , how do you see God looking at you ? And when God looks at you , he sees the righteous of Christ . He's as pleased with you as he is with Jesus . If you've said Jesus , you're my savior , So he's not smiling because you're doing a good job today , right , Or you're a better person today than you were yesterday , That is , that's really not it . It's because of Christ that the smile of God is on your life And so we can just rest in that and be encouraged in that . And so if you're considering , if you're a believer , and are thinking about how does God look at me and you see him either as unhappy , angry or even vaguely disappointed at how you're turning out . That's not the truth of the situation .
Dan HoppenTalk to a page in your Bible Is there ?
Mike WhiteOh , there's always more thought than I don't know . No , romans H is just a powerful chapter For me . There's so much chock full there . And you know , at the end it just talks about now . If we were children , then we are heirs , heirs of God , co-heirs with Christ . Like that's crazy to think about . Like what is that ? Not that we're seeing the same level as Christ , it's just we're in the family of God , you know . And then first John talks about perfect love , casts out fears . So I think kind of what you were saying if , if you're living in fear , that's not what God desires . If you're living in full permission , i'm in control of the situation , that's not a relationship with God either .
Julie EesleyThere's no , it's not accurate .
Mike WhiteThere's a lower situation there too , so yeah , kind of your image of God and how that's going to drive out your faith life . I know it did for me when it was unhealthy And then , as it's gotten more healthy , I think it's what God hopefully desires for me . So step back . Image of God , no scripture Yeah , it's big .
Dan HoppenYeah , i think you know , on the surface , the idea of God being full of love and full of wrath or justice . You know , however you want to phrase it , it is hard on the surface to conceptualize that , but as we've unpacked those two , really they do go hand in hand And I think that that's been really helpful . Thank you , guys , for taking your time and your insights today and bringing them to to this episode of the podcast .
Julie EesleyIt was great to be here . Yeah , thanks , dave .
Dan HoppenThank you , king King's family , for listening , watching . However , you're consuming this . Let's keep living our faith lives beyond Sunday .
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